Wirral Closed Lines & Tunnels

[EJP]

This doesn't make sense. Wirral Waters has to face Liverpool and be connected by rapid-transit rail to Liverpool Waters, Liverpool city centre and the airport. Otherwise it will flop.

...and Birkenhead Park isn't close enough...

Lime St can cope with more traffic with greater throughput by using Edge Hill as a staging area for waiting trains

Having to make use of Edge Hill, as a semi-overflow, would mean that Lime Street is already at capacity. Hence, the area needs more mainline capacity. Wirral has a population of 310,000, larger than for instance Warrington, Preston, Coventry, Leicester, Newcastle, York, Southampton or Milton Keynes, yet doesn't have this facility, on home ground, since Birkenhead Woodside Station has gone. Why should 10% of the cost of travelling by train, to London or Scotland, have to be in crossing one mile of the Mersey?

[Waterways]

...and Birkenhead Park isn't close enough...

No it is not. The station has to be right into the complex to be a success, as they are in London's Docklands. Wirral Waters is to be at Vittoria Dock and East Float.

Having to make use of Edge Hill, as a semi-overflow, would mean that Lime Street is already at capacity.

It would not. It would mean Lime St can have a higher throughput and the region still only has one mainline station, of expensive stations elsewhere.

mainline stations will always be central Liverpool.

Hence, the area needs more mainline capacity. Wirral has a population of 310,000, larger than for instance Warrington, Preston, Coventry, Leicester, Newcastle, York, Southampton or Milton Keynes, yet doesn't have this facility, on home ground, since Birkenhead Woodside Station has gone.

Because the Wirral has a rapid-transit metro network, which they do not.

The Beeching plan in the early 1960's determined that all long distance routes to and from Merseyside will be be run from Lime Street Station. A new electric hybrid metro/commuter rail system, Merseyrail, would service Lime Street Station from all Merseyside. This entailed closing terminal stations: High Level Liverpool Central Station, Liverpool Exchange, Liverpool Riverside and Birkenhead Woodside.

The Loop and Link tunnels in Liverpool centre merged the separate local rail systems into one metro network. Two lines were created, the Northern Line and the Wirral Line. All this merging of different railways to give all access to Lime St gained Merseyside a rapid-transit metro system.

Why should 10% of the cost of travelling by train, to London or Scotland, have to be in crossing one mile of the Mersey?

Pricing is a different issue and the cost is too high. Those on the Liverpool side have to pay the same rates as well.

[EJP]

The station has to be right into the complex to be a success.

Bidston to Duke Street & along Corporation Road. The track is already in place. As is the Bidston Dock-Bidston route. There is no need to use any of the route east of Canning Street North. The only time that the Canning Street North-Mollington Link would be useful for rapid transit, is if there was a mainline station at the Mollington Street depot site. The mainline would then be more elegantly linked into Wirral Waters, & the rest of Wirral, than your proposal.

mainline stations will always be central Liverpool

You're selling me the raw end of the deal, mate! That being, some are more equal than others.

Those on the Liverpool side have to pay the same rates as well.

No they don't. Central Liverpudlians have the option of walking to Lime Street. Anyone living at or near Hamilton Square has to pay to get over the river to Lime Street, by whatever means of transport they use. I put it to you that so long as Wirral is regarded as secondary to Liverpool, then you'd be continuing to create a structure for the economic failure of central Birkenhead - & that failure would then include Wirral Waters. Just because you'd be putting a lot of new buildings up, does not guarantee long-term economic prosperity. All it'd guarantee is that there would be a lot of buildings! Now, take a look at London. London has mainline stations on both sides of the Thames, each serving different directions. Why cannot the Mersey conurbation work in the same way?

[Waterways]

Bidston to Duke Street & along Corporation Road. The track is already in place. As is the Bidston Dock-Bidston route. There is no need to use any of the route east of Canning Street North. The only time that the Canning Street North-Mollington Link would be useful for rapid transit, is if there was a mainline station at the Mollington Street depot site. The mainline would then be more elegantly linked into Wirral Waters, & the rest of Wirral, than your proposal.

You obviously don't get it. The old freight lines ran over roads and the likes, more or less like trams. A rapid-transit rail system is a segregated, uninterrupted line, so that would mean fencing off the line. To bring a line in from Bidston would mean dividing the community, as surface rail lines tend to do.

Wirral Water is to be at the East Float and the commercial section at West Float. Commercial rail can enter via the west from Bidston and passenger rail from he east via the old Dock Branch line from Mollington St. All makes sense.

Birkenhead is NOT going to get its own mainline station, as Lime St serves the Wirral very well. It is easy for most people on the Wirral to get to Lime St than most people in Liverpool. Lime St can take a lot more mainline trains than now. Only when Lime St cannot cope and extension cannot occur, then will another mainline station be considered. That will most probably be Exchange station, with its own underground station as the Northern Line tracks are under the station.

I put it to you that so long as Wirral is regarded as secondary to Liverpool, then you'd be creating a structure for failure - & that failure would include Wirral Waters.

All surrounding towns are secondary to Liverpool, they are in the same socio/economic sphere. Liverpool is the economic generator. Get used to it as that is the way it is. The Wirral should be incorporated into Liverpool and make it all one city. The Wirral will benefit then. Look at the state of Birkenhead.

People in Liverpool and beyond pay the same rail rates as those in the Wirral. Only those who live a short walk from Lime St do not pay, and those are few and far between. If they have bags they will not walk.

Now, take a look at London. London has mainline stations on both sides of the Thames, each serving different directions. Why cannot the Mersey conurbation work in the same way?

London is massive. You may have noticed. It needs lots of mainline stations, Merseyside can cope with one large station, where all the destinations are at one point, which makes matters better for all. Read what I wrote about the creation of Merseyrail and why all mainline stations, bar one, were got rid of.

Forget it, the Wirral WILL NOT have a mainline station built. It will just not happen. It is madness to build one there.

[EJP]

Wirral Water is to be at the East Float and the commercial section at West Float.

All of those bulk carriers, coming into dock, must make a lovely view from the top floor of a skyscraper. Make sure that they don't bump into your yacht!

Forget it, the Wirral WILL NOT have a mainline station built. It will just not happen. It is madness to build one there.

If you're so right, carry on, then.

[Waterways]

All of those bulk carriers, coming into dock, must make a lovely view from the top floor of a skyscraper. Make sure that they don't bump into your yacht!

That is the plan. I think a bulk carrier would make a great sight sailing past high-rises.



Understand how and why Merseyrail came about. A new mainline station is not going to be built in the Wirral because you think it is a separate entity to Liverpool - it is not so get over it.

Good old Wirral petty snobbery raising its head, looking down on Liverpool. I can never understand why they have the attitude they have when looking at the Wirral. There is only about three decent buildings in the whole place. Liverpool has nothing like Birkenhead. Look at the sight Liverpudlians have to look at across the river, and then look at what they see. That says it all.

[scouse smurf]

That is the plan. I think a bulk carrier would make a great sight sailing past high-rises.



Understand how and why Merseyrail came about. A new mainline station is not going to be built in the Wirral because you think it is a separate entity to Liverpool - it is not so get over it.

Good old Wirral petty snobbery raising its head, looking down on Liverpool. I can never understand why they have the attitude they have when looking at the Wirral. There is only about three decent buildings in the whole place. Liverpool has nothing like Birkenhead. Look at the sight Liverpudlians have to look at across the river, and then look at what they see. That says it all.

I've not been in it myself, but supposedly the park is pretty good over there

[pablo42]

I've not been in it myself, but supposedly the park is pretty good over there

Which park? There's a few over here looking over Liverpool.

[scouse smurf]

Birkenhead park, the one central park in New York was based on.. or something like that

[pablo42]

Birkenhead park, the one central park in New York was based on.. or something like that

Can't see Liverpool from there. Best one is Vale Park or the Green Hill, both in Wallasey. The park in Rock Ferry is good too, see Liverpool from there. Eastham also good for South Liverpool and the airport.

[scouse smurf]

I just meant something good the Wirral has got. I'm sure I read u could see right across the Mersey when that park was first built, or whatever u do to a park

[pablo42]

I just meant something good the Wirral has got. I'm sure I read u could see right across the Mersey when that park was first built, or whatever u do to a park

Not when it was concieved anyhow. Birkenhead Park has just been done up. How long it lasts is anyones business. There seems a concerted effort to wreck by the Hooligans

[scouse smurf]

Not when it was concieved anyhow. Birkenhead Park has just been done up. How long it lasts is anyones business. There seems a concerted effort to wreck by the Hooligans

How about any graffitist caught has the inside and outside of their place covered in graffiti

[pablo42]

Smurf, it's not generally that big a problem in Birkenhead Park. The problem there seems to be just wanton destruction. They are, the hooigans, doing quite well.

[scouse smurf]

Smurf, it's not generally that big a problem in Birkenhead Park. The problem there seems to be just wanton destruction. They are, the hooigans, doing quite well.

How about they have legs and arms broke, if caught ?