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Thread: Who was the UKs worst PM and why.

  1. #106
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dazza View Post
    Quotes from Nelville Chamberlain, appeasement, and the British road to war, by Frank McDonough.
    Really, I don't think so.
    Read Tooze who has upset a lot of WW2 history.

    Adam Tooze, Wages of Destruction.
    Page 371.
    "The German army that invaded France in May 1940 was far from being a carefully honed weapon of modern armoured warfare. Of Germany's 93 combat ready divisions on May 10 1940, only 9 were Panzer divisions, with a total of 2.438 tanks between them. These units faced a French army that was more heavily motorised, with 3,254 tanks in total."
    Dutch, Belgian, UK & French tanks in total was 4,200 tanks. The BEF was a fully motorised army, no horses were used to tow guns or supplies, unlike the German army, which mainly horse drawn.

    "the majority of the German tanks sent into battle in 1940, were inferior to the their French, British and Belgian counterparts".
    Tooze, page 371/372.

    "Nor should one accept unquestioningly the popular idea that the
    concentration of the Germans tanks in specialised tank divisions gave them a decisive advantage. Many French tanks were scattered amongst the infantry units, but with their ample stock of vehicles the French could afford to do this. The bulk of France's best tanks were concentrated in armoured units, that, on paper at least, were every bit a match for the Panzer divisions."

    The British did introduce the Matilda 2 tank, although late in the Battle of France, which again the Germans could barely knock out.

    The British and French alone should have stopped the Germans, irrespective of politics. Gross ineptitude on the British and French sides was the problem. How the French never knew of the massive German build up just across their own borders opposite the Belgian border is incredulous.

    Tooze Page 454:

    "Fundamentally the Wehrmacht was a "poor army". The fast striking motorised element of the Germans army in 1941 consisted of only 33 divisions of 130. Three-quarters of the German army continued to rely on more traditional means of traction: foot and horse. The German army in 1941 invaded the Soviet Union with somewhere between 600,000 and 740,000 horses. The horses were not for riding. They were for moving guns, ammunition and supplies."

    "The vast majority of Germany's soldiers marched into Russia, as they had in France, on foot."

    The BEF did not march. The first motorised army. After Normandy most troops went by motor - in theory, although many marched depending on the situation.

    "But to imagine a fully motorised Wehrmacht, poised for an attack on the Soviet Union is a fantasy of the Cold War, not a realistic vision of the possibilities of 1941. To be more specific, it is an American fantasy. The Anglo-American invasion force of 1944 was the only military force in WW2 to fully conform to the modern model of a motorised army."

    The reality was that the German Army so no super army with advanced equipment, as propaganda portrayed. The Allies attempted to cover their pitiful, inept defeat.

    Tooze, page 373:
    "In retrospect, it suited neither the Allies nor the Germans to expose the amazingly haphazard course through which the Wehrmacht had arrived at its most brilliant military success. The myth of the Blitzkrieg suited the British and French because it provided an explanation other than military incompetence for their pitiful defeat. But whereas it suited the Allies to stress the alleged superiority of German equipment, Germany's own propaganda viewed the Blitzkrieg in less materialistic terms."

    From Keegan:
    • Germany was third behind the USA, then the UK in GDP in 1939.
    • Germany equals UK in capital goods production in 1939.
    • UK economy grows 60% during WW2.
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  2. #107

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    "Several members of an anti-Zionist Jewish sect have spent the Jewish Sabbath in Gaza with some of Israel's most bitter enemies, the Islamic group Hamas.

    Yisroel Dovid Weiss, a leader of the radical Neturei Karta, said Saturday that his group was in Gaza to show support for the Palestinian people.

    The sect decries Israel's existence because they believe Jews must live in exile without a country of their own until the coming of the Messiah.

    Neturei Karta traditionally supports Israel's enemies - most notably Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, whom members hugged at a Holocaust Revisonist conference in 2006."


    Jews I would be more than happy to shake hands with, Waterways me young street arab.

    Currently Ignoring:
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  3. #108

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    Almost tempting to take Waterways off me iggy list? What say the forum? Yay or Nay?
    Currently Ignoring:
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    The voices in my head


  4. #109
    Captain Kong captain kong's Avatar
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    I think Mr WW is a member of the Conservative Party.
    I used to vote Labour but since he started all his entertaining views of Labour I have decided to vote Conservative now.
    What a ploy.

  5. #110
    Senior Member RonnieW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.D.W View Post
    Almost tempting to take Waterways off me iggy list? What say the forum? Yay or Nay?

    It all depends on if you think he has something worth reading. The last Labour Party supporter who had anything worthwhile to say was George Lansbury. It's been a steady march to the right ever since.
    I admit there is quite a comic element in the Blair Babe's ramblings, but there's a decent little book about which has the same sort of stuff in it without you having to imagine him frothing at the mouth whenever someone has a go at Baby Bomber Blair: http://www.waterstones.com/waterston...locks/3436940/

  6. #111
    Senior Member Samsette's Avatar
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    RonnieW.? Can you quote any sources for saying that British troops were sent into Viet Nam?? I only ask because it is a subject close to my heart.? I do know for certain that a British general who had successfully employed the fortified hamlet concept during the Malayan Emergency of 1948-61 did attempt to impose his knowledge on MAC-V, and, to their credit, the Americans did allow him to come and make his assessment of the situation.? I believe his name was Templar, and the fortified hamlet thing worked quite well in Malaya, simply because the indigenous population were Malay, whereas the insurgents were mainly ethnic Chinese.? The insurgency in Viet Nam was a made in Viet Nam product with 100 per cent Vietnamese participation.? The only British troops in Viet Nam, that I am personally aware of, were half a dozen Military Police on temporary duty from Singapore, and a small detachment from the Gurkas from HK, tasked with guarding the British Embassy in Saigon.

  7. #112
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.D.W View Post
    "Several members of an anti-Zionist Jewish sect have spent the Jewish Sabbath in Gaza with some of Israel's most bitter enemies, the Islamic group Hamas.

    Yisroel Dovid Weiss, a leader of the radical Neturei Karta, said Saturday that his group was in Gaza to show support for the Palestinian people.

    The sect decries Israel's existence because they believe Jews must live in exile without a country of their own until the coming of the Messiah.

    Neturei Karta traditionally supports Israel's enemies - most notably Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, whom members hugged at a Holocaust Revisonist conference in 2006."


    Jews I would be more than happy to shake hands with, Waterways me young street arab.

    You are obsessed with Jews. Get it sorted.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  8. #113
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.D.W View Post
    Almost tempting to take Waterways off me iggy list? What say the forum? Yay or Nay?
    You must keep me on!!
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
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  9. #114
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captain kong View Post
    I think Mr WW is a member of the Conservative Party.
    I used to vote Labour but since he started all his entertaining views of Labour I have decided to vote Conservative now.
    What a ploy.
    You must be a masochist.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

    Save Royal Iris - Sign Petition

  10. #115
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieW View Post
    I admit there is quite a comic element in the Blair Babe's ramblings,
    I find it comical when fools like you have no memory whatsoever.

    What don't you understand about this? You can move your lips when you read.

    Under Blair Since 1997:
    • The UK economy has been the world's most robust.
    • The pound has been almighty strong.
    • 9/11 caused a recession in most of the western world. It never happened here.
    • The UK had the longest sustained economic growth in history. Provincial cities have boomed with their skylines changing beyond belief.
    • Some superb anti-social laws have been implemented (a pity some police and courts do not use them enough).
    • The country even absorbed over 1 million eastern European and still not have an unemployment problem.
    • Hereditary peers abolished - the biggest constitutional change since Oliver Cromwell
    • Provincial cities went on massive building programmes - look at the skyscrapers in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham.


    You do not change a winning team. Get back to me where you are stuck.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

    Save Royal Iris - Sign Petition

  11. #116
    Senior Member underworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.D.W View Post
    Almost tempting to take Waterways off me iggy list? What say the forum? Yay or Nay?
    Nay don't do it. Everyone is getting wound up by him. If they just ignored everything he writes then maybe the idiot would go away.

  12. #117
    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Read Tooze who has upset a lot of WW2 history.....Adam Tooze, Wages of Destruction.
    I'll check it out, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Page 371.
    "The German army that invaded France in May 1940 was far from being a carefully honed weapon of modern armoured warfare. Of Germany's 93 combat ready divisions on May 10 1940, only 9 were Panzer divisions, with a total of 2.438 tanks between them. These units faced a French army that was more heavily motorised, with 3,254 tanks in total."
    Dutch, Belgian, UK & French tanks in total was 4,200 tanks. The BEF was a fully motorised army, no horses were used to tow guns or supplies, unlike the German army, which mainly horse drawn.

    Tooze Page 454:

    "Fundamentally the Wehrmacht was a "poor army". The fast striking motorised element of the Germans army in 1941 consisted of only 33 divisions of 130. Three-quarters of the German army continued to rely on more traditional means of traction: foot and horse. The German army in 1941 invaded the Soviet Union with somewhere between 600,000 and 740,000 horses. The horses were not for riding. They were for moving guns, ammunition and supplies."

    "The vast majority of Germany's soldiers marched into Russia, as they had in France, on foot."

    The reality was that the German Army so no super army with advanced equipment, as propaganda portrayed. The Allies attempted to cover their pitiful, inept defeat.
    From Keegan:
    • Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    • UK economy grows 60% during WW2.
  13. Poppycock! Let's not kid ourselves here? This 'motorised' army and superior Matilda II tanks would not have been able to sustain the effort had it not been for the creation of U.S. Lend-Lease act, in March 1940 [Germany invaded France May 1940] which cancelled US previous impartiality concerning conflicts overseas, and were now able to send aid [goods for loans] to whoever they saw fit - mostly to Britain & France. Without this aid our war would have finished in 1940. And a more 'primitive' [though effective] solider's on foot with dependable horse drawn carriages may have won the day for the Germans? So much for our preparedness? Epic FAIL on our part...and for Chamberlain.

    As a footnote: remember the American war in independance [1775 ? 1783]? Here was this superior militarial technological country [Great Britain] possessing the most powerful empire the world has seen....who were defeted by local militia, who knew the terrain well, and employed unorthodox methods of fighting.
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  • #118
    Pablo42 pablo42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debra View Post
    Has to be Margret Thatcher , she brought down everthing , as well as selling off everything .
    She was a very funny Lady. Total Boss...


  • #119
    Pablo42 pablo42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.D.W View Post
    Almost tempting to take Waterways off me iggy list? What say the forum? Yay or Nay?
    WW is cool, bad mannered but cool none the less.

  • #120
    Senior Member underworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pablo42 View Post
    WW is cool, bad mannered but cool none the less.
    Bowlocks!

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