Mackenzie's Tomb - Rodney Street

[dazza]

Apparently he only votes when the vote is tied and then he always votes in favour of the motion. True utilitarianism, even in death.

Ha ha, only in Britain? IOW, he'd champion a cause, but would still remain in the closet.

I've tried to find a copy of his will but to no avail - Carlyle is a wonderful one for quoting his sources ..

That's one for Frank then - otherwise it gets filed in the unsubstantiated fact bin.

John Reppion (a writer and poster on these forums) pointed out in his '800 Years of Haunted Liverpool' that there is a very famous story about a man buried in a pyramid called 'Mad Jack Fuller' but apparently that is untrue as well although the pyramid was built before he died and he was buried underneath it.

Amazing - he went into the afterlife armed with... a 'full dress and top hat seated at a table set with a roast chicken and a bottle of wine'. I'm not saying this is wrong - it obviously worked for him, as a royal flush did for Mackenzie.



I've just read Dan Brown's The Lost Symbol, so forgive me for asking - but was William Mackenzie a mason?

[dazza]

I was telling a freind about this myth of McKenzie and she quite rightly said it doesnt exist merely because skeletons dont exist, only in films and medical schools as once the connective tissue has disappeared so to does the skeleton so in reality all that would be left would be a pile of bones and a dissintegrated pack of cards and clothes....... er dust? not very spooky but true

Another nail in the coffin for this myth. It's not looking good for ole Mackenzie?

[fortinian]

I've just read Dan Brown's The Lost Symbol, so forgive me for asking - but was William Mackenzie a mason?

I'm going to say probably. It is extremely likely he was a Mason as Masonic activity really took off during the Victorian era, most of the movers and shakers of the day where affiliated with a Lodge of somesort. Basically Freemasonay is and has always been a big old boys club, you scratch my back, wink wink, nudge nudge, know what I mean.

[ChrisGeorge]

True that Steve, most skeletons fall apart. I have seen some that stay together though, don't know the reason why. Never been one to mess with bones. Bad Joo Joo.

There was the case of Miss Hickman, an early woman surgeon, whose body was found in Richmond Park, London, in 1903 after she had been missing for several months. It appears to have been a case of suicide, although a poster on JtR Forums argued that because her head was detached from her body, a serial killer must have done that. More likely her body just fell apart as it became skeletonized. There also appeared to be evidence that dogs or some other animals had disturbed the corpse.

Here's a pdf download about the case:

Susan Collinson, "The Case of the Missing Doctor," Sketches from the history of psychiatry (Women, suicide and insanity at the turn of the century), Psychiatric Bulletin 1990;14:83-86.

The article chronicles the case of Miss Sophia Frances Hickman, MD Bruxelles, LRCP, LRCS Edinburgh, a locum tenens at the Royal Free Hospital, Gray's Inn Road, reported missing in August 1903. As noted above, it looks as if it was a case of suicide, a hypodermic syringe being found near her body, and evidence introduced at the inquest that before her disappearance she had purchased 15 grains of sulphate of morphine. Her body was found to be "in repose" and there was no sign of sexual interference.

Chris

[Ged]

True that Steve, most skeletons fall apart. I have seen some that stay together though, don't know the reason why. Never been one to mess with bones. Bad Joo Joo.

Pablo. Bad news for you. That skeleton in Alan's room in Rising Damp is plastic

[dazza]

Pablo. Bad news for you. That skeleton in Alan's room in Rising Damp is plastic

This one is still intact, and doesn't suffer from rising damp.
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/1388610/4786730

[petromax]

Who said it wasn't true?

Only joking!!! [...had you all guessing for a split second though???]. Let me introduce Jeremy Benthan, (b.1748 - 1832), politician, philosopher, legal and social reformer preserved and displayed, as requested in his will, in a wooden cabinet called an "Auto-icon" at University College, London...

As you're probably aware this is not him. His head fell off and was eventually taken away. His body rotted from the inside, so it's largely his clothes and a dummy head that remains.

So there's still a chance that Mackenzie's clothes are still playing cards in his tomb (after a 17 years wait...)

[fortinian]

So there's still a chance that Mackenzie's clothes are still playing cards in his tomb (after a 17 years wait...)

, I was about to post angrily saying 'no chance, he wasn't in the bloody pyramid in the first place'.... then I realised you were joking.

I'll get my coat.

[Cadfael]

One has to wonder whether the story does have some sort of truth in it. It is not possible that the body was stored away, fully clothed until the money was found to have this pyramid built on top so his last dying wish could be fulfilled? It's doubtful but there has to be a reason in the 17 year wait.

Whatever the truth, it's one of the most striking grave stones I've ever seen in Liverpool, and it beats the Walker grave at Childwall.

[dazza]

One has to wonder whether the story does have some sort of truth in it. It is not possible that the body was stored away, fully clothed until the money was found to have this pyramid built on top so his last dying wish could be fulfilled? It's doubtful but there has to be a reason in the 17 year wait.

Only one way to find out...

[fortinian]

One has to wonder whether the story does have some sort of truth in it. It is not possible that the body was stored away, fully clothed until the money was found to have this pyramid built on top so his last dying wish could be fulfilled? It's doubtful but there has to be a reason in the 17 year wait.

Whatever the truth, it's one of the most striking grave stones I've ever seen in Liverpool, and it beats the Walker grave at Childwall.

It is very unlikely Cad for a number of reasons.

1) Mackenzie's first wife Mary Dalziel was already buried on the grave plot so the vault was there and ready to recieve coffins easily.

2) How would you go about storing a body for 17 years? Especially a fully clothed one? They did not have refrigeration in those days and preserving techniques (formaldehyde etc...) tend to make flesh and muscle incredibly stiff. Although I do like the idea of a bloke sitting in a huge tank of formaldeyde but humerous as it is its very unlikely.

3) As for the money... William Mackenzie was incredibly wealthy and his brother even more so. In the years before his death Mackenzie had purchased a number of country estates including Newbie and other
estates in the county of Dumfries and Auchenskeoch in the Stewartry
of Kirkcudbright. His will was valued at ?341,848 at the time of his death. Because he had no children it all went to his brother Edward.

Edward Mackenzie (who erected the pyramid) owned the lovely Fawley Court http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fa...circa_1826.jpg.

Money was clearly not an issue.

The reason the pyramid was built 17 years after he died is quite simple. In 1839 William Mackenzie married for the second time to Sarah Dewhurst.

After his death Sarah remained living in Grove Street before dying herself on 9th December 1867. The pyramid was erected in 1868 simply because they where waiting for Sarah to die so she could be laid to rest with her husband.

Pretty hard to do that if there is a stonking pyramid on top of the vault is it not?

A side note: Mackenzie was much admired accross Europe, more so than in Britain. The Empeor of France Louis Napoleon was full of praise for William:

Napoleon, grasping him
by the hand, thus addressed him - "I am happy to see you again
so well. I am still happier to have the opportunity of thanking
you, as President, for the great and useful works you have executed
in France. I shall be glad to confer on you the decoration of the
Legion of Honour, and I trust your Government will permit you to
wear a distinction so well-merited.

[Cadfael]

A cracking reply and fully knowledgeable on the subject.

I think sLemon has led many people up the garden path on this one - but I would still be first in the Q when they opened up the tomb just to have a nose.

[naked lilac]

If the Eygptians could perserve bodies, then, why not a man with tons of Loot having his wishes granted..

They could of put him (fully clothed), like a mummy in an Eyptain casket.. and sat it up in a catacomb under the earth.. It is very cold there, and would perserve it somewhat.. I think it is possible.. Lime which may accumulate inside a skeleton.. will preserve the outer service.. Like a fossiled skull..

Those were the days of experiment and yes ,The society of Free masons..which is still alive to this day... I agree with how this could of been a hushup circumstance..but, believe preservation of bones to some extent sitting up would be fesible....

[fortinian]

Woo! Finally, I found a copy of his Will online:



It's written in pretty dense Chancery Script and it may be a while before I have to time to sit down and transcribe it but in my quick overview I haven't found any mention of a pyramid, gambling or indeed any above ground internment at all.

The first paragraph seems to be all about looking after his wife:

. I give to my Wife an annuity of three thousand pounds payable during her life and to be enjoyed as her separate property free from the control of any husband whom she may marry whilst said annuity shall ouccure from my estate and shall be paid quarterly without dedution and I request for her to reside with my brother Edward Mackenzie in the house No 74 Grave Street Liverpool or any other house she may wish in where apartments of her own hire and for living shall be allowed to her should she so live to accept this at my decease or at any future time I own that she be allowed any out of my houses within the parliamentary constituencies of Liverpool (excepting that one at No 74 Grove Street) for a residence free of rent and all other charges for the natural term of her life or so long as she may reside in it.

You can see why the 3/4 pages of it are going to be a bugger to transcribe, but I will endevour.

[naked lilac]

Fortinian.. Aww, the man loved unconditionally.. How beautiful is that?

Nice you are desecting it for us.. very interesting stuff indeed.. and something for all the tour directors to digest when they pass the tomb..