I suppose the ultimate date is on the gate of 'Park Lodge'...AD 1207. I'm not sure what, if any, is original in this building, though.
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I suppose the ultimate date is on the gate of 'Park Lodge'...AD 1207. I'm not sure what, if any, is original in this building, though.
Hi MarkyQuote:
Originally Posted by marky
Certainly the date on the gate "1207" is based on the designation in Robert Griffiths' history of Toxteth as the "Higher Lodge" of King John but whether such a lodge was actually built in 1207 at that spot or sometime during the middle ages appears unknown. I somehow think 1207 was a bit early for the house to be built. As you probably know there are pictured bits and pieces of slabs of sandstone that were supposedly from the facade of the original lodge photographed on the lawn of the house shown in Griffiths' book (p. 26).
Mike Royden on his history site, under the entry for Otterspool, in talking about both the Higher and Lower Lodges, only says, "In 1596, the ancient hunting park of Toxteth, which had for 400 years been inhabited only by deer and their keepers, was disafforested by the Earl of Derby. . . . Before the disafforestation, there were two hunting lodges erected in the Ancient Park [emphasis mine]; the Higher Lodge at the junction where Lodge Lane originally met Ullet Road, and the other, the Lower Lodge, lay next to Otterspool, just inside the boundary wall of Toxteth. (The Lower Lodge was demolished in 1863 and Otterspool Station built on the site)."
Pictured in Griffiths' book pp. 12-13 in a photograph and drawing are sandstone "architraves" supposed to be from King John's Lower Lodge that were said to be in the vicinity of Otterspool Station at the time his book was published (1907). I looked for these in the early Sixties and never found them, even wrote to the Liverpool Corporation about them in 1962 and got a polite answer but no information on where they might have disappeared to. However, one thing about them is that from the photograph and sketch they appear to be from a wide, shallow Tudor-style arch that would not have matched the architecture of King John's reign, which would have been more Early English with narrow pointed arches or possibly Norman. So that again makes me doubt that either lodge was a 1207 structure, or at least if they were, to think they were probably remodeled or rebuilt later.
Chris
Not sure it counts as a date 'stamp' as such. It fascinates me this gate. Thousands of people drive past it every day. I wonder if they realize its significance.Quote:
Originally Posted by marky
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/91/25...1aa9c523a4.jpg
I wonder what the significance of 1207 in this case is, or what the owner is trying to say?
1207 is when King John granted Liverpool its first charter.
I don't think the charter included Toxteth Park, so why should 1207 appear on one of the lodges of Toxteth Park?
It has been said (Liverpolitana) that Toxteth Park was created in 1204.
As far as I know the actual date of the erection of either lodge has never been mentioned (if the dates were ever recorded in the first place).
Phil, apparently the Park Lodge (with the 1207 date) was the site of King John's original Hunting Lodges all those years ago, his play ground I can only assume being Toxteth as it was then.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipG
The house is said to still retain some of the original features of that hunting lodge. I'd love to get inside and have a look.
It's just been converted into apartments, Kev, so you might try renting one. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev
I know parts of the building are very old & part of one of the 2 hunting lodges.
All I'm saying is I don't know why 1207 should have been put on the gates.
I think its a statement on the significance of the building's history and connection with King John, plus the signing of the Charter in 1207.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipG
You could well be right, Kev, but as the date stands on its own, most people will think it means that was when the building was first built.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev
And then it will become another "fact".
I was given a guided tour of the inside of the house back in the early 1960's by the then lady of the house. I remember there was a big fireplace that looked old. I should say the house itself is more likely seventeenth or eighteenth century than earlier. Is there anything about it in any of the Liverpool architecture books?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev
Chris
All Joseph Sharples says is: "On the left, at the corner of Sefton Park Road, is Park Lodge. Unremarkable externally, it is supposed to incorporate masonry from one of the lodges of the former royal hunting ground of Toxteth Park." (Page 280).Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge
Chris, the fireplace is supposed to be almost identical to the tudor ones at Queen Elizabeths Keep at Kenilworth Castle.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge
hi, i'm a newbie and would like to let interested people know about about king john's higher hunting lodge which is currently my home. it is an honour which has fallen to ourselves <no idea why us> to restore this interesting building.,the very core of which is the original lodge. our solicitor remarked that the previous owners had replied to the question of "has it been extended with "three times in 800 years. i find it amazing that its presence is such a locally well known secret and yet the city council had no idea of its existence. we had no inkling of its provenance until we had practically purchased it. it is a magical place which has gems in abundance, even the garden was designed by herbert rouse!it is essentially the very first scouse house and we are indeed fortunate to be part of its rich tapestry.
Hi there,
Refering to a previous post I made about this gem:
I expect that photographs of inside are very rare. Would you be willing to share some with us of the inside plus progress of the resotoration?Quote:
Park Lodge, Sefton Park Rd (which used to be part of Lodge Lane). It is believed to contain some of the original structure of King Johns Tudor hunting Lodge which gave its name to Lodge Lane. The fireplaces inside are the same in detail as some in Queen Elizabeths Keep at Kenworth Castle.
http://static.flickr.com/116/251272096_b6f9561dd8.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/91/251271995_1aa9c523a4.jpg
Kev
PS, I've merged this post with another thread so it now contains plenty of info :)
wow, what an amazing piece of news!!Quote:
Originally Posted by king john
i am sure I speak for everybody when I say, we would love to see some pics of the interior...
And, that I am so jealous! :) :)
yeah I agree .. that's soo interesting:celb (23):
park lodge is a family home and has never been converted into apartments as has been stated by philip g. and hopefully never will be. the 1207 on the gates is the connection between king john and the higher lodge as it was originally called. if chris is accurate with his recollection the dates, 1960's the rathbone family lived in the lodge and so it would have been mrs rathbone showing him around.. the house itself as i have said previously has been extended 3 times in 800 years. there are differing periods within the house and the large fireplace he recalls has a fire back dated 1588 this is in the dining hall <saracen room>.i have one photograph which i think is from the 1930's. which i will post when i get my son to show me how!
it is relatively easy to become a house detective living here.there are so many clues and signs of times gone by. for example in four rooms the ceilings are our floors in the rooms above, there are no voids.all our wiring is surface mounted.
park lodge has never failed to challenge and excite us indeed it has become our personal folly. in a few weeks your very own kev is coming for a guided tour. besides which of course i will keep you posted of our progress.
Dear King John.Quote:
Originally Posted by king john
I'm very pleased to hear that Park Lodge hasn't been converted into apartments, but in my defence I have to say that I believed this notice - which is attached to your property - is genuine.
I was always under the impression that "For Sale" signs should only be affixed to the property they refer to.
dear Philip, my husband allowed a developer to erect the sign on our fence. the sign actually refers to st. gabriel's convent, which has been converted into apartments. we had forgotten it was there and come tomorrow will ask for it to be removed. it is not illegal to post a sign referring to another building, only if it has been done without permission.
i was looking at your thumbnail attachments. when were you here?
kept that one quiet Kev hehe:unibrow:Quote:
Originally Posted by king john
Quote:
Originally Posted by king john
I live not far away.
I took more photos today.
Folks, I've just got back from an fantastic hour at this gem of a building, I'm on cloud nine to say the least and will post some pics later.
:)
Hi Kev
Excellent news. I am greatly looking forward to seeing the pics. :handclap:
Chris
Me too! :handclap: :) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge
I was excited as I walked upto the house. I've driven past this hundreds of times and always wondered what was inside, now was my chance to find out. Paula (member King John), who owns the house with her husband had opened the gates for me.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/91/25...1aa9c523a4.jpg
Lets start outside:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/127/3...e7d0f46b06.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/135/3...bed7ec517a.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/130/3...b0a2ef0654.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/161/3...af9d519055.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/3...a3cafee382.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/158/3...42eca28dee.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/163/3...2ea7697bf5.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/3...23fecc2a2e.jpg
On the next photograph if you look closely, between the roof and the wall is a feature that dates back to the Norman period, when the roof would have been flat.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/185/3...e6b31a6ab7.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/137/3...03ee19218a.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/176/3...246f92bc48.jpg
Lets go inside:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/144/3...108d8882c9.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/124/3...ab0f052a24.jpg
Here's that fireplace:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/183/3...895039844a.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/155/3...9340dee755.jpg
Inscription reads - 1588 'EFC'. There's an anchor on it too.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/161/3...a682afb023.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/3...e868d05c0b.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/127/3...5f2fcceed5.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/164/3...98b207facc.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/3...a5a1fe3a00.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/147/3...cb42c5d0eb.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/128/3...d71b1e4440.jpg
The thickness of this archway is a clue to the age of this part of the house and was where the original door was all those years ago:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/139/3...81cd201730.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/3...7f77215453.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/133/3...b6a34ab5d7.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/51/39...836515fba3.jpg
Bathroom and toilet:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/136/3...56d0cada26.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/55/39...a11910710b.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/135/3...8f982a2df2.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/138/3...35f6e3c8bf.jpg
The bath below can also be found in Speke Hall, obviously not the same one.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/140/3...453aaceddb.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/172/3...ccde29cc7b.jpg
Going upstairs - this stair way takes us into the space that can be seen clearly from the outside here:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/125/3...a7e79b6583.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/153/3...d2a1992b84.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/151/3...8774615143.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/141/3...5cec393f37.jpg
Look what I found in the corner, an old map of Liverpool, probably original.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/146/3...f60731e8e8.jpg
The other pics can be found here :)
The house seemed huge and I couldn't get over how significant this building is to the city of Liverpool, yet it isn't listed.
Paula talked with passion about the Liverpool and the house and their plans. The tough restoration job is being done by Paula and her husband and I'm glad to say that it was purchased by the family just before a developer got their hands on it. If the developers had - I certainly wouldn't have been able to get in.
I can't thank Paula and her family enough for letting little old me inside for a pretty much free wander around, every time I turned a corner, another door was opened for me to look into and every room has a story attached!
Hope you enjoy the pictures people, the place is so special :)
Brilliant photo's well done - thanks for sharing them
OMG ! What fabulous photos of a wonderful house. I didn't know anything about the existance of this house before. Thanks so much to Paula and her family for allowing us to see. Thanks Kev for taking the trouble to post all the photies. Brilliant ! :handclap:
Fantastic photo's Kev! Spot on! :PDT11
I was around that location at the weekend! My uncle was brought up in the house that John Brodie (City Engineer) lived - no 28 Ullet Road. And when John Brodie died, his (my uncle) uncle, Reg Arrowsmith, purchased the house and made it in to flats for the family to live in. Reg Arrowsmith for the older generation on here owned lots of motor garages, including the now demolished Cubbin & North site on Ullet Road and Dudlow Motor's in Childwall to name but a few.
Great pix Kev, thank them for everyone on this forum. It was nice that they shared. :037:
Excellent work, Kev. :handclap:
Thank you King John (Paula).
They're really photos for the archive.
That ceiling is fabulous.
Whereabouts is the oldest part of the house?
Is it well hidden inside subsequent building work, or is it possible to see anything from the outside?
The views of Fritz Spiegl's home are great too.
Hi Kev
Fabulous photographs, Kev. And thanks to Paula and her husband for graciously allowing our intrepid leader to tour the lodge.
In the matter of the cast iron fireback with what you thought were the initials "EFC 1588" I am fairly sure that it is either "IFC" or "JFC" not "EFC" -- the letter "I" often being rendered with such a nobbly fashion, and the name for James I in Latin being rendered "Iacobus" for "Jacobus" Latin for James on coins of that king. I note that there also seems to be a shield to the left of the date which might be a clue to which family owned the fireback if the heraldic designs can be interpreted.
Chris
The oldest part of the house lies between here....
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/139/3...81cd201730.jpg
and here...
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/124/3...ab0f052a24.jpg
..u can see that thick arch from pic 1 in the back ground.
Hi Kev
Further to the fireback, I have found a similar cast iron fireback described on the web:
An English cast iron fireback, probably 19th Century, cast after a 16th Century pattern from a Sussex foundry commemorating the Spanish Armada, the arched rectangular backplate cast in relief with a pair of anchors and flanked by fruiting vines, and dated "1588" with the letters "I.F.C"
86.5cm (34") High, 103cm (40.5") Wide
See: Rupert Gentle and Rachael Feild "Domestic Metalwork 1640-1820", Elek Books 1975, p.332 for an illustration, the comment reading: "The initials "I.F.C stand for "In Factiem Concepta" meaning "In Commemoration of the Dead". Several of these firebacks are known, each with additional decoration. All were cast at the same foundry, probably in the Sussex Weald".
The question is whether the fireback at King John's Higher Lodge is an original from the sixteenth century or one of the nineteenth century replicas.
Chris
^^Cheers Chris^^
Chris are you sure that's not LFC afterall its a little faded :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge
Yes and I think it might be Rafael Benitez's coat of arms as well. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Walden
Hi KevQuote:
Originally Posted by Kev
Incredible indeed that the building is not listed, as you say, and we do owe a debt of gratitude to Paula and her husband for saving the lodge from the developers and lovingly restoring it.
I wanted though to address the subject of that old newscutting. What is the proof that King John ever did personally hunt in the park?
I looked at the large size of the pic of the newscutting on Flikr and I don't see that the article actually backs up what is stated in the headline. I also wonder about the statement that "after first being enclosed by palings [the park] was walled in" -- wouldn't there be a trace of such medieval walls?
The charter or letters patent of 1207 made Liverpool a privileged port, giving it exemption from certain dues and taxes, and thus was designed to encourage trading. But it was issued by King John in Winchester not in Liverpool. We do know though that King John had become lord of the country between the Rivers Mersey and Ribble and made various grants to these lands. It is also known that the reason for the letters patent was that King John needed a port of embarkation for men and provisions to Ireland. The small town or hamlet Liverpool with its sheltered "Pool" on the eastern bank of the Mersey was ideal for such needs. Liverpool would also provide an alternative to using the port of Chester on the Dee, which was controlled by its powerful and independent Earl -- however, the Dee continued to be used to ferry Royal armies to Ireland as late as the reign of William III (1688-1702) after which the Dee became too silted for large vessels and Liverpool became the preferred port.
Now King John was in the habit of traveling around the country as I believe the king depended on his barons to put him up wherever he went, the monarchy of the day being short of money. There is also the famous incident of King John, just before his death, losing the royal treasure in the Wash, the distinctively shaped square-mouthed estuary on the northwest margin of East Anglia on the east coast of England, "where Norfolk meets Lincolnshire", as recounted on Wikipedia:
The most famous incident associated with the Wash is the loss of King John's royal treasure. According to contemporary reports, John travelled from Spalding in Lincolnshire to Bishop's Lynn, in Norfolk, was taken ill and decided to return. While he took the longer route by way of Wisbech, he sent his baggage train, including his crown jewels, along the causeway and ford across the mouth of the Wellstream. This route was usable only on the lower part of the tide. The horse-drawn wagons moved too slowly for the incoming tide, and many were lost.
The present-day location of the accident is normally supposed to be somewhere near Sutton Bridge, on the River Nene. The name of the river changed as a result of redirection of the Great Ouse during the seventeenth century, and Bishop's Lynn became King's Lynn as a result of Henry VIII's rearrangement of the English Church.
Astronomical study, however, permits a reconstruction of the tide tables of the relevant day and it seems most likely, given travel in the usual daylight hours, that the loss was incurred in crossing the Welland estuary at Fosdyke.
There is also a suspicion that John left his jewels in Lynn as security for a loan and arranged their "loss". This looks likely to be apocryphal. However that may be, he passed the following night, that of 12 to 13 October 1216, at Swineshead Abbey, moved on to Newark-on-Trent and died of his illness on 19 October.
So could King John in his younger days have visited Liverpool and hunted in the royal park of Toxteth?
Chris
I've heard reference to a wall around Toxteth Park.
It might have been in Griffith's History of Toxteth Park.
Attached is my piece about Dingle/Toxteth Park taken from "A Tram Ride to Dingle".
Thanks for that, Philip. And here's a website on one of the last remaining royal hunting parks, Richmond Park:Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipG
http://www.gardenvisit.com/landscape...hmond-park.htm
Chris
Thankyou Kev, Paula and everyone else for this thread, i have so enjoyed the contents :PDT_Aliboronz_11:
And the pictures were fantastic :handclap::handclap:
What i would'nt give for a good root around this place.........
Jacky x :)
I believe one set of gates in this wall were located near St James Church, Toxteth Park. This section of the wall along Parliament St was the last bit still standing before development brushed it aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipG