King John's Hunting Lodge

[marky]

I suppose the ultimate date is on the gate of 'Park Lodge'...AD 1207. I'm not sure what, if any, is original in this building, though.

[ChrisGeorge]

I suppose the ultimate date is on the gate of 'Park Lodge'...AD 1207. I'm not sure what, if any, is original in this building, though.

Hi Marky

Certainly the date on the gate "1207" is based on the designation in Robert Griffiths' history of Toxteth as the "Higher Lodge" of King John but whether such a lodge was actually built in 1207 at that spot or sometime during the middle ages appears unknown. I somehow think 1207 was a bit early for the house to be built. As you probably know there are pictured bits and pieces of slabs of sandstone that were supposedly from the facade of the original lodge photographed on the lawn of the house shown in Griffiths' book (p. 26).

Mike Royden on his history site, under the entry for Otterspool, in talking about both the Higher and Lower Lodges, only says, "In 1596, the ancient hunting park of Toxteth, which had for 400 years been inhabited only by deer and their keepers, was disafforested by the Earl of Derby. . . . Before the disafforestation, there were two hunting lodges erected in the Ancient Park [emphasis mine]; the Higher Lodge at the junction where Lodge Lane originally met Ullet Road, and the other, the Lower Lodge, lay next to Otterspool, just inside the boundary wall of Toxteth. (The Lower Lodge was demolished in 1863 and Otterspool Station built on the site)."

Pictured in Griffiths' book pp. 12-13 in a photograph and drawing are sandstone "architraves" supposed to be from King John's Lower Lodge that were said to be in the vicinity of Otterspool Station at the time his book was published (1907). I looked for these in the early Sixties and never found them, even wrote to the Liverpool Corporation about them in 1962 and got a polite answer but no information on where they might have disappeared to. However, one thing about them is that from the photograph and sketch they appear to be from a wide, shallow Tudor-style arch that would not have matched the architecture of King John's reign, which would have been more Early English with narrow pointed arches or possibly Norman. So that again makes me doubt that either lodge was a 1207 structure, or at least if they were, to think they were probably remodeled or rebuilt later.

Chris

[Kev]

I suppose the ultimate date is on the gate of 'Park Lodge'...AD 1207. I'm not sure what, if any, is original in this building, though.

Not sure it counts as a date 'stamp' as such. It fascinates me this gate. Thousands of people drive past it every day. I wonder if they realize its significance.

[PhilipG]

I wonder what the significance of 1207 in this case is, or what the owner is trying to say?
1207 is when King John granted Liverpool its first charter.
I don't think the charter included Toxteth Park, so why should 1207 appear on one of the lodges of Toxteth Park?
It has been said (Liverpolitana) that Toxteth Park was created in 1204.
As far as I know the actual date of the erection of either lodge has never been mentioned (if the dates were ever recorded in the first place).

[Kev]

I wonder what the significance of 1207 in this case is, or what the owner is trying to say?
1207 is when King John granted Liverpool its first charter.
I don't think the charter included Toxteth Park, so why should 1207 appear on one of the lodges of Toxteth Park?
It has been said (Liverpolitana) that Toxteth Park was created in 1204.
As far as I know the actual date of the erection of either lodge has never been mentioned (if the dates were ever recorded in the first place).

Phil, apparently the Park Lodge (with the 1207 date) was the site of King John's original Hunting Lodges all those years ago, his play ground I can only assume being Toxteth as it was then.

The house is said to still retain some of the original features of that hunting lodge. I'd love to get inside and have a look.

[PhilipG]

Phil, apparently the Park Lodge (with the 1207 date) was the site of King John's original Hunting Lodges all those years ago, his play ground I can only assume being Toxteth as it was then.

The house is said to still retain some of the original features of that hunting lodge. I'd love to get inside and have a look.

It's just been converted into apartments, Kev, so you might try renting one.
I know parts of the building are very old & part of one of the 2 hunting lodges.
All I'm saying is I don't know why 1207 should have been put on the gates.

[Kev]

It's just been converted into apartments, Kev, so you might try renting one.
I know parts of the building are very old & part of one of the 2 hunting lodges.
All I'm saying is I don't know why 1207 should have been put on the gates.

I think its a statement on the significance of the building's history and connection with King John, plus the signing of the Charter in 1207.

[PhilipG]

I think its a statement on the significance of the building's history and connection with King John, plus the signing of the Charter in 1207.

You could well be right, Kev, but as the date stands on its own, most people will think it means that was when the building was first built.
And then it will become another "fact".

[ChrisGeorge]

Phil, apparently the Park Lodge (with the 1207 date) was the site of King John's original Hunting Lodges all those years ago, his play ground I can only assume being Toxteth as it was then.

The house is said to still retain some of the original features of that hunting lodge. I'd love to get inside and have a look.

I was given a guided tour of the inside of the house back in the early 1960's by the then lady of the house. I remember there was a big fireplace that looked old. I should say the house itself is more likely seventeenth or eighteenth century than earlier. Is there anything about it in any of the Liverpool architecture books?

Chris

[PhilipG]

I was given a guided tour of the inside of the house back in the early 1960's by the then lady of the house. I remember there was a big fireplace that looked old. I should say the house itself is more likely seventeenth or eighteenth century than earlier. Is there anything about it in any of the Liverpool architecture books?

Chris

All Joseph Sharples says is: "On the left, at the corner of Sefton Park Road, is Park Lodge. Unremarkable externally, it is supposed to incorporate masonry from one of the lodges of the former royal hunting ground of Toxteth Park." (Page 280).

[Kev]

I was given a guided tour of the inside of the house back in the early 1960's by the then lady of the house. I remember there was a big fireplace that looked old. I should say the house itself is more likely seventeenth or eighteenth century than earlier. Is there anything about it in any of the Liverpool architecture books?

Chris

Chris, the fireplace is supposed to be almost identical to the tudor ones at Queen Elizabeths Keep at Kenilworth Castle.

[king john]

hi, i'm a newbie and would like to let interested people know about about king john's higher hunting lodge which is currently my home. it is an honour which has fallen to ourselves <no idea why us> to restore this interesting building.,the very core of which is the original lodge. our solicitor remarked that the previous owners had replied to the question of "has it been extended with "three times in 800 years. i find it amazing that its presence is such a locally well known secret and yet the city council had no idea of its existence. we had no inkling of its provenance until we had practically purchased it. it is a magical place which has gems in abundance, even the garden was designed by herbert rouse!it is essentially the very first scouse house and we are indeed fortunate to be part of its rich tapestry.

[Kev]

Hi there,

Refering to a previous post I made about this gem:

Park Lodge, Sefton Park Rd (which used to be part of Lodge Lane). It is believed to contain some of the original structure of King Johns Tudor hunting Lodge which gave its name to Lodge Lane. The fireplaces inside are the same in detail as some in Queen Elizabeths Keep at Kenworth Castle.

I expect that photographs of inside are very rare. Would you be willing to share some with us of the inside plus progress of the resotoration?

Kev

PS, I've merged this post with another thread so it now contains plenty of info

[MissInformed]

hi, i'm a newbie and would like to let interested people know about about king john's higher hunting lodge which is currently my home. it is an honour which has fallen to ourselves <no idea why us> to restore this interesting building.,the very core of which is the original lodge. our solicitor remarked that the previous owners had replied to the question of "has it been extended with "three times in 800 years. i find it amazing that its presence is such a locally well known secret and yet the city council had no idea of its existence. we had no inkling of its provenance until we had practically purchased it. it is a magical place which has gems in abundance, even the garden was designed by herbert rouse!it is essentially the very first scouse house and we are indeed fortunate to be part of its rich tapestry.

wow, what an amazing piece of news!!
i am sure I speak for everybody when I say, we would love to see some pics of the interior...
And, that I am so jealous!

[lindylou]

yeah I agree .. that's soo interesting