Liverpool Waterloo Tunnel Update 10th Feb 2008

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Originally Posted by petromax

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Originally Posted by Waterways

It is debatable that direct links to the airport benefit the city, or more outsiders.

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I really think we need to dispense with any prejudices against 'outsiders'.

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No prejudice. People not even stopping in the city and using the airport to go elsewhere, may not be such a benefit to the people of the city - It may be to Peel the owners. Manchester based. We need a direct airport link for sure. The priority in rail should be the centre and the inner city, which it can make most impact for least money.

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and thirdly, the 'charabanc' trade at King's Dock is part of an overall offer, bringing investment into the city.

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It is, but what great benefit is it to the people of the city? Historic docks filled in to make char-banc park for outside companies to make money from. The local councilor that covered Kings Dock was totally against the scheme, wanting residential and leisure development that benefit the people and get them living around the quays. I agreed with him.

The money making part, the arena could have been on the ranshakle businesses on the land side of the Kings/Queens Docks

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Look at how successful the rejuvenated dock systems of Cape Town (V&A Watewrfront), Sydney (Darling Harbour) and Baltimore (Inner Harbor) are. They have blazed a trail for Liverpool to follow.

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Liverpool should follow Amsterdam and Hamburg, where people live around the quays in vibrant communities together with appealing leisure facilities. Toxteth and Harrington Docks are how not to use redundant docks.

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Of course Liverpool should have been the leader but it is by far bigger an opportunity than these three examples and at least we can learn from their mistakes

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Or learn from the successes, which don't do what Liverpool is doing. Liverpool just does what Peel want to do. They keep referring to Central Docks. What docks? There are few docks left there now. Like Kings Dock just large areas of filled-in water space. And there will be fewer when they fill in West Waterloo.

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Originally Posted by Waterways

No prejudice. People not even stopping in the city and using the airport to go elsewhere, may not be such a benefit to the people of the city - It may be to Peel the owners. Manchester based. We need a direct airport link for sure. The priority in rail should be the centre and the inner city, which it can make most impact for least money. .

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Where will people go from Liverpool airport? It is no hub. It's a destination. If you make your city competitive and available, you will attract business. let's say you have many millions to spend on the relocation of a major international bank bring in many more millions of secondary investment and making any city you go to a better place to be. Which would you choose - Liverpool afraid of outsiders or Manchester with the welcome mat out? QED

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Originally Posted by Waterways

It is, but what great benefit is it to the people of the city? Historic docks filled in to make char-banc park for outside companies to make money from. The local councilor that covered Kings Dock was totally against the scheme, wanting residential and leisure development that benefit the people and get them living around the quays. I agreed with him.

The money making part, the arena could have been on the ranshakle businesses on the land side of the Kings/Queens Docks


Liverpool should follow Amsterdam and Hamburg, where people live around the quays in vibrant communities together with appealing leisure facilities. Toxteth and Harrington Docks are how not to use redundant docks. .

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If you haven't been or know of the revitalised docks in Sydney, Cape Town or Baltimore or any other of these stellar success stories - just say so. In all of these places and yes including Amsterdam and Hamburg (on a smaller scale) 'people live around the quays in vibrant communities together with appealing leisure facilities'.

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Originally Posted by Waterways

Or learn from the successes, which don't do what Liverpool is doing. Liverpool just does what Peel want to do. They keep referring to Central Docks. What docks? There are few docks left there now. Like Kings Dock just large areas of filled-in water space. And there will be fewer when they fill in West Waterloo.

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Liverpool was a basket-case before 1999. Everything that has been achieved thus far within the city boundaries has been achieved without Peel. Peel is a great opportunity that is at the start of the road. But being outsiders, we should turn them away and let them invest in anywhere other than here because they are 'Manchester-based'. Perhaps you should learn from Manchester's successes and embrace the outsider.

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Originally Posted by petromax

Where will people go from Liverpool airport? It is no hub. It's a destination. If you make your city competitive and available, you will attract business. let's say you have many millions to spend on the relocation of a major international bank bring in many more millions of secondary investment and making any city you go to a better place to be. Which would you choose - Liverpool afraid of outsiders or Manchester with the welcome mat out? QED

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True that an airport with many destinations will attract business. But right now most passenger leaving and arriving at JLA don't stop and spend in he city - they are people from outside the city. So, any immediate rail priority should be to regenerate the city, not make matters better for outsiders. Manchester was described as an airport with a city attached - we don't want that.

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If you haven't been or know of the revitalised docks in Sydney, Cape Town or Baltimore or any other of these stellar success stories - just say so. In all of these places and yes including Amsterdam and Hamburg (on a smaller scale) 'people live around the quays in vibrant communities together with appealing leisure facilities'.

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I know all about these places. Amsterdam is not small. Have you been there?

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Liverpool was a basket-case before 1999. Everything that has been achieved thus far within the city boundaries has been achieved without Peel. Peel is a great opportunity that is at the start of the road. But being outsiders, we should turn them away and let them invest in anywhere other than here because they are 'Manchester-based'. Perhaps you should learn from Manchester's successes and embrace the outsider.

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My point is clear. Peel only care about Peel and making money. They don't care about our history or heritage. I was banned of the Liverpool Echo forum for daring to oppose Peels wanting to fill in West Waterloo Dock. They appear to have the council and local media in their pocket. Money they make is taken out of the city.

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Originally Posted by Waterways

...But right now most passenger leaving and arriving at JLA don't stop and spend in he city - they are people from outside the city. ..

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Why do you think they come here? For their health?

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Originally Posted by Waterways

...I know all about these places. Amsterdam is not small. Have you been there?..

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Yes, and Cape Town and Sydney. I have worked in the latter two. I know them rather well. I know the relative size of Liverpool rather well too which was my point.

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Originally Posted by Waterways

...My point is clear. Peel only care about Peel and making money. They don't care about our history or heritage. I was banned of the Liverpool Echo forum for daring to oppose Peels wanting to fill in West Waterloo Dock. They appear to have the council and local media in their pocket. Money they make is taken out of the city.

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You are very clear.

You do not appreciate that the pound in your pocket is worth exactly the same as the pound in Peel's pocket.

I imagine you were banned for a bit more than voicing your opinion - maybe there are just a few people who disagree with you and the way in which you put your opinions over.

Maybe if someone told you what to do with your property you would get upset.

The council and local media support investment in the city. Yes, Peel take their money home wherever that may be, just like you. But on the way they bring jobs and investment, pay rates and development contributions, create opportunities for secondary investment, pay taxes and increase the profile of the city making our city a more propsperous place - and you?

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Originally Posted by petromax

...and you?

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On reflection, I'd rather not know, thanks; and I hope someone else can bring this back on-topic

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Originally Posted by petromax

Why do you think they come here? For their health?

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I clearly made the point they do not come here - they go straight to the airport. So a direct line from Wrexham will sail though the city to JLA.

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Yes, and Cape Town and Sydney. I have worked in the latter two. I know them rather well. I know the relative size of Liverpool rather well too which was my point.

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I know Cape Town - I was married there.

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You do not appreciate that the pound in your pocket is worth exactly the same as the pound in Peel's pocket.

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And their pounds are taken away form the city.

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I imagine you were banned for a bit more than voicing your opinion - maybe there are just a few people who disagree with you and the way in which you put your opinions over.

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After 4 posts I never had time put across much of an opinion at all. Ever thought of your offensive manner? And how it would be better to get the odd point before responding.

I know exactly what Peel may bring to the party. However they want to rip us off for all they can get. As I said "Peel only care about Peel and making money. They don't care about our history or heritage." We have to call the shots, not them. The tail wags the dog.

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Originally Posted by Waterways

[i]"Peel only care about Peel and making money.

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Thats busisness.

By introducting a rail link from LSP going to the airport taking in the estuary busisness park, the airport and speke. Peel get a direct rail link to their airport. More money for them, we get peel to contribute to the rail link amungst other things. Speke gets a train station which it needs and we'd get extra cash to invest in other areas.

Thats Politics

Peel should be welcomed with open arms, after all they just want to make as much money as they can. They'll bring jobs, other busisnesses who will bring more jobs. More Graduates (which the city is desperate for its economy) will need to stay in the city as there will be an availablity in the job market. We'd be able to afford the circle lines from the increased revenue both in council tax and fares as well as the rates from busisnesses.

What the council should be doing is liasing with them now to say "look guys, sure build there but filling in of the docks is not allowed. In fact while your there can you dig out trafalger dock. It is after all something as important to the world as the pyramids. We'll try and do something to help you (i.e try and get the government to give us powers to create a Land value tax area within the city say the world heritage areas (Trafagla dock would have to be out filled to meet the criteria), this would also attract other busisnesses and allow them to re-develop grade listed buildings at a lesser price than today. Making Liverpool even more attractive for investment)" Instead of stringing them along. Peel will get a nasty shock when they submit the design proposal If they go along with the current plan.

If Labour win the next election they're going to have a nice big headache in how to solve this issue.

And yes we're way off topic. Perhaps this should all go in a seperate thread.

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Originally Posted by Broliv

Thats busisness.

By introducting a rail link from LSP going to the airport taking in the estuary busisness park, the airport and speke. Peel get a direct rail link to their airport. More money for them, we get peel to contribute to the rail link amungst other things. Speke gets a train station which it needs and we'd get extra cash to invest in other areas.

Thats Politics

Peel should be welcomed with open arms, after all they just want to make as much money as they can. They'll bring jobs, other busisnesses who will bring more jobs. More Graduates (which the city is desperate for its economy) will need to stay in the city as there will be an availablity in the job market. We'd be able to afford the circle lines from the increased revenue both in council tax and fares as well as the rates from busisnesses.

What the council should be doing is liasing with them now to say "look guys, sure build there but filling in of the docks is not allowed. In fact while your there can you dig out trafalger dock. It is after all something as important to the world as the pyramids. We'll try and do something to help you (i.e try and get the government to give us powers to create a Land value tax area within the city say the world heritage areas (Trafagla dock would have to be out filled to meet the criteria), this would also attract other busisnesses and allow them to re-develop grade listed buildings at a lesser price than today. Making Liverpool even more attractive for investment)" Instead of stringing them along. Peel will get a nasty shock when they submit the design proposal If they go along with the current plan.

If Labour win the next election they're going to have a nice big headache in how to solve this issue.

And yes we're way off topic. Perhaps this should all go in a seperate thread.

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That's probably the most sensible thing said on this thread. :handclap:

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Originally Posted by Broliv

By introducting a rail link from LSP going to the airport taking in the estuary busisness park, the airport and speke. Peel get a direct rail link to their airport. More money for them, we get peel to contribute to the rail link amungst other things. Speke gets a train station which it needs and we'd get extra cash to invest in other areas.

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As long as they do contribute. Peel have to be controlled, otherwise they will ruin the city. That is done having as many firm policies in place for them to work inside.

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What the council should be doing is liasing with them now to say "look guys, sure build there but filling in of the docks is not allowed.

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The council is not doing that at all. They have no firm policy on water spaces. Peel want to charge companies to fill in the docks and then make a killing on the newly created land. They care nothing of history or heritage.

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In fact while your there can you dig out trafalger dock. It is after all something as important to the world as the pyramids. We'll try and do something to help you (i.e try and get the government to give us powers to create a Land value tax area within the city say the world heritage areas (Trafagla dock would have to be out filled to meet the criteria), this would also attract other busisnesses and allow them to re-develop grade listed buildings at a lesser price than today. Making Liverpool even more attractive for investment)" Instead of stringing them along. Peel will get a nasty shock when they submit the design proposal If they go along with the current plan.

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I fully agree. Clarence Dock is historically important, as 1.3 million starving Irish came through the port via this dock.

Below: Original Clarence Dock:
http://i29.tinypic.com/11sf4pk.jpg

Below: As it is filed in today. The outline of the granite quays can be seen.
http://i29.tinypic.com/in4g3r.jpg

Quite easy to excavate. The pictures shows the level of infilling (land by stealth). Some people are on about how an Irish connection should be in the city, then this could be around an excavated Clarence Dock. The Irish Dock.
http://i31.tinypic.com/2zqv6n6.jpg

Yep, that is definitely off-topic.

Quick word on JLA Airport - more sweeping assumptions that "People not even stopping in the city and using the airport to go elsewhere, may not be such a benefit to the people of the city"

True, I don't stop off in town before I use the airport but what about the people who use the airport to come and visit/stay in Liverpool? Surely a better rail link for these people can be only a positive thing for the city - raising its profile etc.

And yes, a new station for Speke - everyone's a winner.

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Originally Posted by jc_everton

Yep, that is definitely off-topic.

Quick word on JLA Airport - more sweeping assumptions that "People not even stopping in the city and using the airport to go elsewhere, may not be such a benefit to the people of the city"

True, I don't stop off in town before I use the airport but what about the people who use the airport to come and visit/stay in Liverpool? Surely a better rail link for these people can be only a positive thing for the city - raising its profile etc.

And yes, a new station for Speke - everyone's a winner.

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The point I am making is that an expanded airport is a not a sure fire winner to increase wealth in a city. Manchester airport wasn't that great an asset to the city. Many used the airport, but few went into the city - and the problems of aircraft pollution. That is not such a great problem at Liverpool as the planes come in over the estuary. An airport does promote business connections - eventually.

I would get rid of the isolated Speke housing estate. It needs lots of money spending on it which, with the poor image of the estate, may prove to be a waste of money in the end. The land is best used for airport expansion.

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Originally Posted by Cadfael

That's probably the most sensible thing said on this thread. :handclap:

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And the most positive :handclap::handclap::handclap:

incentive not censure!!

Yes, I agree with the 'getting rid of Speke' principle, but come on, let's be realistic here!
By all means, get rid of any derelict housing, of which there is quite a bit, no-one wants to move there so there's no point in maintaining them.

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Originally Posted by jc_everton

Yes, I agree with the 'getting rid of Speke' principle, but come on, let's be realistic here!
By all means, get rid of any derelict housing, of which there is quite a bit, no-one wants to move there so there's no point in maintaining them.

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Speke is an isolated estate surrounded by industry and an airport. It is quite a way from Garston. A large airport and industrial estate separate the two.

Building new, or renovating homes there is futile. It will always be a sink estate and and be a bottomless pit for public money in benefits, vandalism repair, etc. It is an embarrassing eyesore right next to the airport - the front window of the city.

It is right in the way of expansion too. The city does want the airport t be bigger.

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Originally Posted by Waterways

Speke is an isolated estate surrounded by industry and an airport. It is quite a way from Garston. A large airport and industrial estate separate the two.

Building new, or renovating homes there is futile. It will always be a sink estate and and be a bottomless pit for public money in benefits, vandalism repair, etc. It is an embarrassing eyesore right next to the airport - the front window of the city.

It is right in the way of expansion too. The city does want the airport t be bigger.

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Hopefully there will be someone on the forum from Speke to put you right. It sounds like you've never been down there? Isolated? It's right on the boundary to Hale Village - why not knock that down too as well as paving over all of Speke? And not forgetting Speke Hall - knock that down as well!

You don't see any part of Speke when you are exiting the airport, apart from the main duel carriageway which brings you to a nice church on the corner.

As for expansion, drive down Oglet Lane one day and see how much wasteland there is if you think there is no room for expansion.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Cadfael

Hopefully there will be someone on the forum from Speke to put you right. It sounds like you've never been down there? Isolated? It's right on the boundary to Hale Village - why not knock that down too as well as paving over all of Speke? And not forgetting Speke Hall - knock that down as well!

You don't see any part of Speke when you are exiting the airport, apart from the main duel carriageway which brings you to a nice church on the corner.

As for expansion, drive down Oglet Lane one day and see how much wasteland there is if you think there is no room for expansion.

:rolleyes:

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I know Speke very well, when it half decent. It has always had very rough parts. The last time I went the, a few years ago, It amazed how the place become a half decent place to a full sink estate. Quite dire. It is in the way and better spending the money to put people elsewhere.

Hale village does not border Speke, the are a number of fields between. Also Hale is in Cheshire not Liverpool, a different admin. And Hale looks nice, which Speke does not.

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Originally Posted by Waterways

I know Speke very well, when it half decent. It has always had very rough parts. The last time I went the, a few years ago, It amazed how the place become a half decent place to a full sink estate. Quite dire. It is in the way and better spending the money to put people elsewhere.

Hale village does not border Speke, the are a number of fields between. Also Hale is in Cheshire not Liverpool, a different admin. And Hale looks nice, which Speke does not.

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What's speke in the way of? Liverpool Airport? Seeing as the old airport was brought in after Speke was developed.

So far on this thread, you've wanted to turf someone out of their business, (Dingle Station), construct a new network of tunnels by excavating between Dingle and Edge Hill, open up the Wapping/Waterloo tunnel without any real business plan and idea on excavation in an emergency and now you want to demolish the whole of Speke just because the masses that used to work at the Dunlop factory don't live there anymore.

I can't wait for the next gem :wtf:

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Originally Posted by Cadfael

What's speke in the way of? Liverpool Airport? Seeing as the old airport was brought in after Speke was developed.

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I'm not sure if it was. Speke was first developed in the 1930s, I think just after the airport was setup, otherwise it would have been next to Garston, not remote from it.

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So far on this thread, you've wanted to turf someone out of their business, (Dingle Station),

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Yes. It is a needed station, and the station was there first. The garage can go where industry should be, not at the bottom of a residential street.

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construct a new network of tunnels by excavating between Dingle and Edge Hill,

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Great idea, competes an underground Circle Line which the city needs.

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open up the Wapping/Waterloo tunnel without any real business plan

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There is is it called the Circle Line and the needs it.

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and idea on excavation in an emergency

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??

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and now you want to demolish the whole of Speke just because the masses that used to work at the Dunlop factory don't live there anymore.

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Yes, and the place is a dump (last time I looked), and not worth spending money on. It is in the way of commercial and industrial expansion.

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I can't wait for the next gem :wtf:

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They will come. Wait.

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Originally Posted by Cadfael

One thing we are all forgetting here, the Dingle Station is owned by a private company (Roscoe's) who have an extensive set up already there and doubt would ever move out unless they were given a pretty penny. Where else would you find a motor garage with all that space??

You may as well write anything off to do with the Dingle Station.

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I forgot to reply to this a good few days ago when it was posted.

The curent tenants will not been to be bought out as a new station would have to be built. The existing 'station' would never pass H&S (stupid things like minimum platform widths etc).

It would be a lot more cost effective to build a new cheap station nearby, than to enlarge the tunnel aswell as buying out.

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Originally Posted by robt

I forgot to reply to this a good few days ago when it was posted.

The curent tenants will not been to be bought out as a new station would have to be built. The existing 'station' would never pass H&S (stupid things like minimum platform widths etc).

It would be a lot more cost effective to build a new cheap station nearby, than to enlarge the tunnel aswell as buying out.

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Where would the new station be built? Enlarging that station must be the most cost effective way.

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Originally Posted by Waterways

Where would the new station be built? Enlarging that station must be the most cost effective way.

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No idea where it would be built as I don't know the surroundings well enough to comment, before I do, how far into the tunnel mouth was the station?

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Originally Posted by robt

No idea where it would be built as I don't know the surroundings well enough to comment, before I do, how far into the tunnel mouth was the station?

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http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...y/index3.shtml

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Originally Posted by robt

No idea where it would be built as I don't know the surroundings well enough to comment, before I do, how far into the tunnel mouth was the station?

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Map on post No. 20 on this thread. It looks like it can only be underground.

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Originally Posted by Waterways

Map on post No. 20 on this thread. It looks like it can only be underground.

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It's not very clear though - but very roughly what are we talking - 100 meters or a mile?

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Originally Posted by Waterways

...They will come. Wait.

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I, for one, don't doubt it.

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Originally Posted by robt

It's not very clear though - but very roughly what are we talking - 100 meters or a mile?

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the street map shows the station.

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Originally Posted by robt

It's not very clear though - but very roughly what are we talking - 100 meters or a mile?

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It's underground on Park Road about 100m from the old cinema at the junction of Park Road and Dingle Lane. That makes it very roughly 800m into the tunnel. I seem to recall seeing a plan which showed at least a portion of track open to the air at the station.

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Originally Posted by petromax

It's underground on Park Road about 100m from the old cinema at the junction of Park Road and Dingle Lane. That makes it very roughly 800m into the tunnel. I seem to recall seeing a plan which showed at least a portion of track open to the air at the station.

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The station near next to the cinema at Keddleston St. The station was never open to the air, or any part of the tunnel. 100% underground.

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Originally Posted by Waterways

They will come. Wait.

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An admission you talk out your arse just to get a reaction? :)

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Originally Posted by Waterways

the street map shows the station.

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If you know the answer, why not just tell me what I asked instead of telling me look at a map with no scale?

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Originally Posted by petromax

It's underground on Park Road about 100m from the old cinema at the junction of Park Road and Dingle Lane. That makes it very roughly 800m into the tunnel.

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Thankyou :)

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Originally Posted by robt

An admission you talk out your arse just to get a reaction?

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Martin, you just haven't got it. :) No vision, no engineering acumen.

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If you know the answer, why not just tell me what I asked instead of telling me look at a map with no scale?
Thankyou :)

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Looking at the map and streets gives an idea - yes the station is a mile long. :)

From www.steamindex.com

The Liverpool dock railway - early developments. John C. Hughes.111-16.
First published in North Western Society for Industrial Archaeology and History No. 4. History of railway access to Liverpool Docks. Liverpool & Manchester Railway acquired access to King's Dock in 1833, to Brunswick Dock in 1835, to Salthouse Dock in 1843 and to Wapping Warehouse in 1856. The LNWR opened its Waterloo Goods Station in 1849 and in 1857 the railway was extended to the docks. The L&YR high level coal railway opened on 23 December 1852 and provided access to Wellington and Bramley Moore Docks. In September 1858 the LNWR reached Stanley. The Mersey Docks & Harbour Board was formed in 1858. There was a bad relationship between the railway companies and the MD&HB and this was fostered by the railways diverting traffic to their own docks. In the 1890s the rise of Southampton and the opening of the Manchester Ship Canal forced changes. Riverside Station was opened in 1895, but the CLC was not permitted to access it. Steam working was permitted on the dock lines, In 1905 the MD&HB introduced its own locomotives. There were further improvements in WW1. In 1927 Gladstone Dock was opened which gave much better rail access. Illus. of MD&HB locomotives (all 0-4-0ST): No. 22 (Avonside); No. 30 (Kerr Stuart) and No. 41 (ex-Woolwich Arsenal: Avonside/1918).

That's a useful summary and a handy link-thanks!

Dave.

Oritelad on his site:
http://www.oldliverpoolrailways.tk/
says:

This tunnel was apparently to be connected to the Merseyrail northern line back in the 1970s and a short connection was apparently made but they idea was scrapped, also tunnels run off the waterloo tunnel near the site of the old hodson station i heard that where made for run away train sidings, quite a few of the vents for this tunnel are long gone but there is one next to the nation express coach station that is still there today.

Many have been down the Waterloo Tunnel and none have reported any tunnelling work from the 1970s, or any tunnels off the main tunnel of any description.

Otitelad also says:

in 2007 it was decided by Merseyrail they will reopen the tunnel from Liverpool Central and then run through the Waterloo tunnel up to Edge Hill and onto the Canada Dock branch which will be reopened again for a new line for passengers again and all the old stations along that line will open up again this is all to happen by 2021.

I have read nothing that this notion is set in concrete.

The Canada Dock Branch line via Anfield and Kirkdale would form a loop from Moorfields, Edge Hill, Anfield, Kirkdale, Sandhills and back to Moorfields. Maybe a line from Hunts X, South Parkway to Moorfields around the north-end loop and back. It would need to be electrified from Edge Hill to Kirkdale.

Also this would mean a loop from South Parkway to Moorfields, up the Waterloo tunnel to Edge Hill and along the London main line to South Parkway. Again Hunts X could be the terminus.

Further to this piece re-stated above

''This tunnel was apparently to be connected to the Merseyrail northern line back in the 1970s and a short connection was apparently made but they idea was scrapped, also tunnels run off the waterloo tunnel near the site of the old hodson station i heard that where made for run away train sidings, quite a few of the vents for this tunnel are long gone but there is one next to the nation express coach station that is still there today.''

I think it has been confirmed either on this thread or the Hodson Street thread that there was no Hodson street station and having been down the tunnel myself in the late 1970s there are no new tunnels running of it. However, the Byrom Street cutting does widen out and it's here possibly where tracks/sidings were put for runaway trains that somebody else mentioned.

It is pretty certain no full passenger station was ever at Hodson St, however that is beside the point that work started on the Waterloo tunnel to branch into Moorfields. As you have walked it Ged, you confirm no work started. Work did start on the branch from Central into the Wapping Tunnel, with tunnel headers at Central cut a number of feet.

The Northern Line tunnel above the Wapping tunnel at Gt George St was dropped into the top of the Wapping tunnel in the 1970s so the Northern line can gradually decline into Central low level. It looks as if trains can move under the tunnel above if the Wapping tunnel is used to take people to the Kings Dock Arena. The Wapping tunnel can be deepened at this point if headroom is a problem.

http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/att...1&d=1238081712

Consultation Document:
Consulation Document

The problem with Meseyrail extensions is that all they do is play about at the peripherals. Skemersdale is muted and isn't even in Merseyside. 100% focus should be on the city centres of Liverpool and Birkenhead and surrounding inner-city, using the tunnels.

The total lack of assessment in not considering the North End Outer Loop, via West Derby, and the city centre and Birkenhead tunnels shows how useless this organisation is.

What they said:

The possibility of running passenger trains
along the North Mersey and Bootle branches
was examined by the RUS and cannot
yet be recommended. However, future
development and regeneration could lead
to increased demand for such services. Any
such passenger services would need to be
implemented in a way that ensures current and
future freight demand can be accommodated.
There is also a possibility in the longer term
of using other infrastructure, including the
disused Wapping and Waterloo tunnels, to
provide new journey opportunities.

That's all.

Yeah, its a shame more isnt done about the wapping tunnel. Its obviously still viable as people have been down it only recently and it was in fine condition (and the arena makes it more so).

The only work that was done was the provision of the headers for a flying junction south of Liverpool Central. You can even see some of the grade separation on the three lines running from central in that above image.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SKie

Yeah, its a shame more isnt done about the wapping tunnel. Its obviously still viable as people have been down it only recently and it was in fine condition (and the arena makes it more so).

The only work that was done was the provision of the headers for a flying junction south of Liverpool Central. You can even see some of the grade separation on the three lines running from central in that above image.

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It is desirable to get the Northern Line into the Wapping Tunnel and into Edge Hill, as not doing so keeps the Meseyrail system back. Edge Hill is the core of the Liverpool rail system. Getting direct Merseyrail electrification to Edge Hill means it is easy to expand the Meseyrail system onto the extensive disused Liverpool rail infrastructure. It also means the City Line to St. Helens can be electrified and merged into the Mesreyrail metro system with direct access to Liverpool city centre.

Look at the Canada Dock branch Loop which is being considered for passenger re-use for the Liverpool FC stadium. This looks the most likely to be re-used.

The Canada Dock Branch line is currently a busy freight-only diesel line. The line into Edge Hill junction station would terminate at main line Lime Street using diesel trains.

An interchange would have to be placed in a cutting at Kirkdale to connections to the electrified Merseyrail Northern Line. The line would be limited being only from Kirkdale to Lime Street.

The line could be electrified and branch into the Northern Line at Kirkdale giving full direct access to Liverpool city centre and the south of the city to South Parkway. No connecting station then would need to be built in the cutting at Kirkdale.

If the line is electrified, dual pickup trains, third rail and overhead wires, could be used. The trains could run on the third rail Northern Line and from Kirkdale using overhead wires along the Canada Dock Branch line and into Lime Street. Using the main line Lime Street station is not ideal for a commuter train, as they take up valuable long haul train platforms.

If the 1970's scheme to branch into the Wapping Tunnel from Central station and re-commission the tunnel went ahead, then the Canada Dock branch would have direct access to the city centre, and the Wirral if need be from Edge Hill. A loop is then formed via Edge Hill and Kirkdale giving great flexibility of logical line creation and train routing. Also the Wapping Tunnel can give direct access to the Liverpool Arena at Kings Dock.

However, the most essential aspect is getting this up and running: Circle Line , as it will regenerate inner-city areas and give so much bang for buck.

Tell a mandarin in Whitehall that you need to spend millions on getting an old tunnel in operation, when passengers can change at Lime St low level rise to the upper level and get a diesel train (badged Merseyrail on the pseudo City Line) to St. Helens. And the same can happen with the Canada Dock Branch line when terminating at main line Lime St if that goes ahead. Well he is going to shake his head. No bang for buck.

Tell him that:

• A Circle Line created by one of the old tunnels, running through three inner-city districts, four if you count Byrom St
• Giving ease of expansion of the Merseyrail system out into the disused rail infrastructure from Edge Hill
• Creating a Loop via Waterloo Tunnel, Edge Hill, Mossley Hill to South Parkway and back via Brunswick and Central, using dual pickup trains and largely existing overhead wires and 3rd rail.

Then his eyes will light up. "regeneration of inner-city districts". They love that.
Also "cleaner environment" as dirty diesel trains are taken off the tracks.
A new line for minimal cost via Mossely Hill Big bang for buck

If the LFC Stadium station does go ahead, the line will certainly run from Bootle Oriel Road to Lime Street. The disused platform (and track) at Oriel Road was purposely left intact in the recent station refurb for this.

Though I doubt this would be 3rd rail, much more likely to be OHLE or left for diesel services to run on it. Depends on what Merseyrail do with a new order of trains, Hybrids or Dual Voltage (or ust DC if DaFT want to be ****y)

Newspaper extract Sept. 2nd 1867 c)British Library
Byrom Street Station gets a brief mention.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...ept2nd1867.jpg

Good find Marky.