Thanks Ged.
It probably gave access to all these underground streets we hear about! :rolleyes:
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Thanks Ged.
It probably gave access to all these underground streets we hear about! :rolleyes:
I have found out about it and is part of the Alexander Dock Branch and does link up to Edge Hill via the Canada Dock Branch and i suspect that were it links to onto the Northern Line is to connect it to What i would immagine is the Seaforth Dock Branch Line a short one simmiler to the Alexander Dock Line.
And where i see it go under ground at Bootle acutally used to Be a Station Called Bootle Baloriel Road.
The line seves the former Edge Lane Station site and all of the other Stations what used to be on the Canada Dock Branch Line.
Would be grate if this was to re-open as i wouldent have to bother struggling to get through the one way system in the city centre to get from Liverpool Central to Lime Street.
(information from Dissused Stations web site):handclap:
There's an oriel and a balliol rd but none of the name you mention?
Balliol is correct probably my poor spellin got you confused sorry!:002:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
The Hodson St cutting looks like it was a stop of some sort, as it is too big for mere ventilation - other ventilation shafts are just large round pipes to the surface. The St. James' Stn cutting gives the biggest hint. It may have been for rail workers only or access for tunnels diggers, as the ventilation shafts would have been. Or originally intended to be a station, but never commissioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
There is a clear question mark over the cutting.
Crown St and the station in Manchester were the "joint" first passenger stations in the world, commissioned at the same time to my knowledge. They operated at the same time. Was there intermediate stations as well? If so then these are equal to Crown St. Crown St may get the first tag because the train left Liverpool for Manchester so was the first station to have a passenger train operate from it, which a rather pedantic point. The Manchester Station at Liverpool St (?), is still there, while Crown St has disappeared.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnarf
Now now Philip :ninja::)Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipG
Only messin', Brother Cad. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadfael
Well the BOOTLE BALLIOL ROAD cutting was definitly a station as there was a Ticket Office there fro which the remains can be seen today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
See this link http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...ad/index.shtml
And i think it will be a great idear to re-open the Line to passenger traffic again.
I was in a cutting and a tunnel at one end, unlike Hodson St and St. James', which are cuttings down into an full underground tunnel.Quote:
Originally Posted by John_142
Re-open the line. If it couldn't make in 1948, then I doubt it will today. To make any sense it would have to be an integrated part of Merseyrail.
Yes probably the best option would be to make it part of Merseyrail for which i can see it making a few bob these days especially if they open Stations for the University and Hospital etc.
It would provide a vital link for these sites from the Main Line as if you get off at Lime St it's quite a walk to the Hospital from there and up Hill as well.:PDT11
The thing is that, given the geography and other developments, the Alexandra and Canada Dock branch is likely to get 25kV overhead electrification before third-rail DC electrification. For a number of reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
So if it opens to passengers at all it is likely that service on this branch will be to and from the Lime Street mainline station, just like it was back in 1948. A cross-platform terminus/interchange or something similar with the Northern line at Oriel road could be feasible and attractive.
I suppose it might also be possible to put in a new station in the existing deep cutting somewhere near the University of Liverpool Veterinary Sciences building. I wonder why no-one has ever (that I'm aware of) proposed doing that. Ie siting a new station there at the University, between Lime Street and Edge Hill, on the mainline and at the foot of the ancient deep cutting.
Just possibly service could be routed from the Alexandra Dock branch via Liverpool South Parkway (on the Allerton side of the station). Again using overhead electrification.
Electric hauled soccer specials to Anfield coming direct to/from places faraway (by-passing Lime Street) are an interesting possibility if indeed the dock branch is overhead electrified (including the Olive Mount Chord), irrespective of whether regular passenger service is established.
Well i've just had a reply from the guys at and organising this
http://www.lmrs.org.uk/exhibition/index.htm
after last years success.
According to their member 'Jim' an ex steam train and then diesel train driver and railway enthusiast who apparently knows everything worth knowing regarding Liverpool's rail network. There was never any passenger stations on the Waterloo tunnel line and no passengers used Gt Howard St depot either as it was only goods.
There wouldnt be any point re-opening Balliol road, as they could simply have the trains cross over onto the merseyrail lines and terminate at the third platform at Oriel road (or continue to the third platform at Bootle New Strand).
I do think this line will eventually re-open to passenger traffic due in part to the Anfield expansion's transport plans requiring a station to be opened on that line. If its overhead, they could probably extend the overhead to the above stations at little extra cost, nicely linking the two lines. merseyrail could then get dual power trains when they put their order in for the new stock they will need by 2010/15 and then they could run services directly to lime-street from the northern line via Anfield.
The Hodson St cutting may have been to crane down cables and the likes as the wagons were pulled by cables from Edge Hill. It also most certainly would have been a rail/construction workers or materials access point when digging the tunnel. I'm sure lines would have been run in as the tunnel progressed and rail wagons used to cart away the rock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
Dual power trains yes that would be good plus re-oppening Edge Lane Sttaion would be great for the Retail Park and take some of the traffic off this heavily cogested road.
Also i had a letter from Merseyrail a week or two ago when i commented on the wheel stituation that they had at the time and they say they have started the tendering process for new trains.
So iam going to contact them again and find out how i could get invoilved in the desighn process as this is something i would love to do.
Hi Bunf.Quote:
Originally Posted by bunf
St James closed around 1911 although you can still see the remains of the platforms and the cutting is used for maintenance access.
The station was on the old Cheshire Lines route into Central High Level station, which is now the Merseyrail Northern Line - Hunts Cross branch.
The tunnels into Central were designed for three tracks, although that would probably not conform to modern clearance requirements and there are only two nowadays.
Being in a deep cutting, access would have been a problem. The steel staircase will have been constructed long after the station closed. However, the railway used to own land on the North side of Parliament Street, so I suspect there would have been a subway under Parliament Street with steps down to the platforms. I believe there are some station building, or the remains of them in Ashworth Street at the top of the cutting.
I don't know why the decision was taken to close the station at such an early date but I suspect that it had to do with the competition from tramways, and the fact that the short commuter route into Liverpool Central would not have attracted much traffic. Add to that the inconvenience and unpleasantness of using a low level station in the days of steam motive power. It may also have been closed to allow more traffic through the tunnel into Central.
Merseytravel are interested in reopening St James as it is the closest station to the new Arena and Convention Centre and it would also serve the south end of Chinatown, the Anglican Cathedral and the Canning housing area.
There are now four trains per hour in each direction passing through the station site but this could be doubled if the Ormskirk service, which presently reverses at Central, could be extended to Liverpool South Parkway, something that Merseytravel is considering.
Reopening the station would not be cheap as modern lifts would be required down to platform level, much as at Conway Park in Birkenhead and a new ticket office.
Are lifts expensive then in the grand scheme of things?Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin S
Aren't they cheaper than escalators?
Mind you, a totally new station served by lifts and located at the University on the Edge Hill cutting (Lime Street mainline) would surely see a lot more usage.
Cutting into the Wapping Tunnel, and re-using the tunnel, is the best idea for a uni station.Quote:
Originally Posted by HollyBlack
I have been following this thread intently today, as well as various other ones and I feel it is time for me to chip in.
Someone said that the Wapping Tunnel/Uni Station line would not be very profitable at all. I strongly disagree.
As a student myself, I am 99% certain that a station around Smithdown Rd would be a gold-mine, and that road at rush hours can be an absolute nightmare. My bird lives in Greenbank halls by Smithdown, and it can take up to half an hour on the bus at 9am which is ridiculous.
Link Smithdown Road with a University station and what a result - what an incentive for students who are 50-50 about coming to a Liverpool University. Got to think about non-students too - there is no way that demand would ever be low.
Not only that, but if the tunnel that linked up 'Great Howard St' station was renovated, you could have a direct link to Byrom St uni and the large Avril Robarts Library. Yes this sounds all very well and good for students, but looking at the bigger picture, there is a fantastic opportunity to revolutionise the transport system in Liverpool, which isn't exactly fantastic is it?
Ok, a rail system would could cost many millions. well what about one of them shuttle systems that gets used in somewhere like Alton Towers?! Or in Vegas, that links you from hotel to hotel. Surely this (albeit not majorly fast) system would not cost so much?!
Just a thought.
Jonny.
Jonny, Smithdown Rd had a station on the bridge called Sefton Park - here are remnants of it still there. This runs to Edge Hill where access to the Stephenson Wapping and Waterloo Tunnels is. Smithdown Rd is on the London main line, so whether they will allow a Meseyrail station to use the same tracks is another matter. It would need to be 3rd rail electrified at this point to run Merseyrail trains, unless they use overhead and 3rd rail electric pickup rolling stock. The master plan for rail does include the station though.Quote:
Originally Posted by jc_everton
You are right a station at the uni would make sense, also putting in stations would attract developments too. Students generally don't own cars, so they use public transport.
The abandoned underground Dingle station, the south end terminus of the old Overhead railway, was designed to extend inland, however it never did. A natural extension would be to Smithdown Rd. It is is quite easy to get the station back onto Merseyrail. Whether the cost of boring a tunnel miles inland is worth it is another matter. However the overground station is still there at Smithdown and getting them onto the system is not a great thing.
Liverpool had a fantastic transport system. There are more abandoned rail stations than any other city - there are two underground stations alone that are abandoned.
Get the transport infrastructure in place and the population will follow.
Below: the Smithdown Rd station (Sefton Pk) entrance was to the right.
http://www.toxteth.net/places/liverp...ion%201909.jpg
I have looked in the tunnel and there seems to be no sign of theanother tunnel on the same side as the Balck door.Quote:
Originally Posted by oritelad
But there is another Tunnel on the otherside IE, the Hunts Cross side which seems to be blocked up with grese block.
This Tunnel seems to me as though it weas not another platform but only an Emergency buffer stop as the tunnel dosent seem wide enough for another platfrom and the wall to the right seems to old to have been built up.
How ever there is a possibilty that the platfrom was on the Left hand side with a sperate access probbly from the original High Level Building.
So it is Still a mistery and as for the blck door then i think that it is possible that this just gives access to a ventalation shaft or Ean Old Emergency Evacuation Tunnel Built Before the stair case at the end of the platfrom somrthing like that as if you look towards the end of the tunnel towards Hunts Cross there is an old fire extinghishire box on the Left.
There is more overhead electrification coming, starting with the Chat Moss route (Manchester-Newton-le-Willows-Earlestown-Edge Hill). More will follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
There are so many options for Merseyrail if it has some dual-powered (OHE/3rd Rail) stock.
Merseyrail really needs to make sure that a batch of rolling stock in the not too far distant is electric dual-powered. The difference in price is probably not all that great on a new order. It could easily make the difference between getting the Canada Dock branch to Anfield or losing it to a competitor when Peel decides to run OHE for the dock freight trains to exploit the electrified Chat Moss route to the WCML.
They can definitely have it both ways, Merseyrail can use OHE routes, establish new stations on OHE lines, but other providers cannot use Merseyrail's 3rdRail routes.
There are only two operators that use Merseyrails third Rail Routes and they ar EWS and Freight Liner.
EWS use part of the Southport Line and Freight LInner use part of it aswell to get to the Dcoks at Seafroth and Cannada Dock for EWS.
Northern Occassionaly use part of the Hunts Cross Section of the Southport Line as i was on the Main Line train the other week going to Hunts Cross and it used the third rail route into Hunts Cross as far as the Cross over to Platfrom No 2 probably becuse the Cental Trqains Service was Running Late Behind it.
Also the i know belive that the tunnel on the HUnts Cross platform at Liverpool Central is the Link to the Victoria Tunnel which upto date has never been used.
There where plans back in the early 70's to open it but whre later abanonded so it wouldnt cost mutch or take mutch to open this route.
They dont even have to use the tunnel becasue they can link it from the Junction at Balliol Rd at Bootle and Re-Open Stations Like Breck Rd and Edge Lane etc as Edge Lane Would be grate for the Retail Park as its a bit of a Walk from Broard Green and Wavetree Tec Park.
:PDT11
Hello all this is my first post so here goes
liverpool railways and thier tunnels
have done the waterloo and victoria, august this year.
Just done the dingle tunnel
though now its time to bring on the daddy of them all the wapping, the only thing is the two fences you have to get over in which to gain entry.
not only is it hard getting in to the old crown street station site (now a double skin 8ft steel fence)
but they have also decided to put another fence over the entrance to the tunnel itself
so what do you think, should i go for it ?
wow great that you have done the waterloo tunnel and dingle hope you can upload the photos would love to feature them on my website www.oldliverpoolrailways.tk now the wapping tunnel is the biggest challenge ever i dont know anyone whos been in it for years now i would sujest from experience you are prepared before you go with a wrench to loosen the nuts on the railings if you can jump over and a good flash light and camara and wellies and keep away from the middle of the tunnel as it has drops into and old sewer i think it is or the tunnel that housed the ropes to pull trains in its days andway if you do reach the docks end which splits into 3 tunnels good luck lol because noone has ever got that far as its badly flooded but with high wellies and lots of bottel you could do it lol as for gaining entry from the docks end its impossible as 2 of the tunnels have been bricked in and the centre one is used fo buildling materials and the gate is never open now if a freind does not mind being left behind you could drop down in the cutting in upper frederick street with a rope as its not as riskey as the edge hill end but good luck and let us know how you get on dont foregt there are many more tunnels in liverpool taht are disused look at my tunnels page on my site.
anyone got any pictures or memories of Exchange Street Station which is now Mercury Court? I'm sure it was quite a station in its day.
also whilst out and about today i went back, to have a look at the entrance to the waterloo tunnel (car park whilst sat on the wall there)
and there seems to be more work being done, they have a number of big commercial skips for the old tyres a jcb and a tipper for excavating earth / spoil.
when i walked the length of the tunnel in august this year there were survey pegs in the tunnel, but i have a feeling they are now opening up the entrance once again to faciliate the removal of all the crap in the cutting, but who knows.
me thinks once they have got the crap out the cutting both ends will have raillings put in front of them
while merseytravel and government look at re-opening the old tunnel.
so if anyone wants to walk it, you may only have a few months in which to do so
so long
We would use it regularly to go to Southport and Ainsdale Beach. It was big enough indeed. The facade was/is brilliant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian
To think Liverpool, had three large rail termini: Lime St, Central, Exchange and maybe four if you include Riverside Station at the Pier Head.
The irony is that Lime St may not be big enough to cope for future traffic, so these stations, or at least one, should have been been put into mothballs.
The end of the either the Waterloo or Wapping Tunnels should be made a terminus, with Merseyrail links, if Lime St can't cope. The infrastructure is there.
Seeing this is the transport section and it,s Rememberence Sunday, (what,s that got to do with it?) I,ve found an old photee of where I worked in Mill Road Hospital when this airship went over... interesting????
sandhills station closes on sat till march so iam making sure i get some photos of history before it gets knocked down the same with any other stations that get knocked down also anyone heard about the new station at anfield that will be very much like aintree more info is on my site www.oldliverpoolrailways.tk
So they build a station on the Bottle line to serve LFC. Where would the line go to and from? To Edge Hill and then onto where on the Mersetyrail net.Quote:
Originally Posted by oritelad
there are a few ideas about where the line stops and starts one is lime steeet to edge hill then onto the canada dock branch to the new anfield station when it opens in 2010 then much later on other stations along the line could reopen and then the line could continue to spellow then kirkdale then onto the merseyrail network at bootle orreil road junction another idea was to use the waterloo or wapping tunnel connecting the merseyrail loop line to edge hill then onto the canada dock branch there is also talks of the line goinng onto the old bootle branch to aintree so it could be quite long nothing has been finalised yet though so we will just have to wait and see
From Lime St main line is a no, no. as it is not on Merseyrail. You need easy connectivity with the Wirral, etc. Using the Waterloo Tunnel and connecting onto the Northern Line at Waterloo Dock is good way. It has to a regular service and not a matchday service/line.Quote:
Originally Posted by oritelad
Although I no longer live on Merseyside, I still have a great interest in the regions railways, dating from my days of travelling around the network on a weekend "Merseyrover" and my involvelment in the early days of the "Steamport Museum".
It is fascinating to read about the projects for rail on Merseyside;if only one or two of them could become reality ! Imagine seeing an electric on platform 4 at Southport, with Liverpool Central via Ormskirk on the departure board.
Many of the proposed new rail-links demand huge capital-investment.However, Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge is a mere drop in the ocean when compared to motorway building. The likelehood of ever increasing petrol prices must surely change the current policy of preferring road transport.How many people commuting from Southportto Preston alone in a car would jump at the chance to take a fast, reliable train ?
Does anyone know just how much a mile of third-rail D.C electrification actually costs including the provision for track-replacement, signalling and sub-stations for the power-supply ? The extension to Kirkby Headbolt Lane would give a good idea, althougn I am not sure if the track will be doubled through Kirkby.
That's all true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
But on the other hand that line is moderately and increasingly used for freight which bears heavily. As does the planned electrification of the Chat Moss route from Edge Hill to Manchester via Earlestown.
It would be nice if Merseyrail were acquiring some dual-powered rolling stock (Overhead / Third rail). That would open quite many possibilities.
I'm looking for information about Walton Junction station as I'm finding it hard to pin down. Can anyone tell me where it was (on the corner of which road or whatever), when it opened, when it closed and what stands in its place now? I believe there was a crash there in June 1867 in which a number of people were killed. All info very gratefully received, thanks in advance for your help.
Are any of these two 'Walton Junction' ?
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...ll/index.shtml
or
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...ld/index.shtml
.
researchwriter: you're probably best starting a new thread in order to receive more views and info. also try the Sub Brit site.
As regards the North Liverpool Extension Line, I am confused with the line types. If Lime St's line is not the same as the Northern Line, what line is it? Does anyone have any technical details for this?
Also, the NLE's line is a freight only line, which is also a different type, but what is this?
In order for Lime St - Anfield to happen, must the NLE line and Lime St line be electrified to the same as the Northern Line?
Someone mentioned the busy usage of the NLE line but so what? Frieght and passenger trains run in conjunction with each all over the country, so why not here? Yes, there is only one track, which is not good, but there used to be two tracks, am I right?
In my eyes, the investment would surely be worth it over the long-term. Not only can we have match-day services (for Everton too, providing they stay put) but we can have daily services and new stations between Anfield and Edge Lane. The fact that it links to the Northern Line must also boost its profitability.
Cheers JC, will do.Quote:
Originally Posted by jc_everton