2 pages from the book which report on the Mass Graves.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1...010004n.th.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3...0010005.th.jpg
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2 pages from the book which report on the Mass Graves.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1...010004n.th.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3...0010005.th.jpg
I think on this thread, the man responsible for the disposal of the bodies was quoted. They were not murdered Irish people from the famine - some anti-English Irish loony came up with. The mainly Irish who died during the famine (mainly from disease), are buried in a mass grave at Anfield cemetery.
However, where they came from was not confirmed. Probably from a city centre cemetery, when the city expanded and buildings were needed. There was a church behind St. Georg's Hall that had its graves removed.
hmtmaj - Those book pages are fantastic, thanks very much.
Waterways - you're probably right in saying that they were just transported from another graveyard. However i'm investigating all angles to this story, from government conspiracy, to cholera, to Irish immigrant massacre! (even though I know the last one is a bit ludicrous)
I was interested to read in the book extract that one man is quoted as saying that the bodies were definitely buried pre-1840, as after that date it became common practice for all coffins to have proper detailed inscriptions. Yet Ken Williams (the man allegedly responsible for the cremation of the bodies) insists that some plaques were dated 1859. If what the man in the Catholic Pictorial said is true, then Williams isn't releasing all the information that he knows!
Keep it coming this is great.
I think Williams said there was no sign of gunshot or whatever - so mass murder was ruled out. It is difficult to hide mass murder. Some were children. Child mortality was rife, until post WW2. I think they were buried from youngest to oldest.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackvelvet
Based on the fact that there have been several mass grave burials, found in various parts of Liverpool,such as the school site in Lower Breck rd.(where over a thousand bodies,mainly young people,were intered,then later,covered over by the White City dogtrack!!!) It doesn't seem improbable that the Old Swan site was something like a cholera pit? As for moving bodies from defunct graveyards,Grant gardens, which was the site of the Necropolis,was closed about 1910, and turned into a park.During trial excavations a couple of years ago,for Merseytram, on this site,......guess what, they found human remains! So I'd conclude from that,only the families/relatives of the deceased who were wealthy,or bothered enough to pay for removal,did so, and the rest were played footie on for years,unknown to the players, etc! :)
I don't go along with anybody taking the time, trouble and cost - pre 1840s to exhume bodies for transfer elsewhere, unless like has been mentioned, family members would bother to pay for it. It is known that French prisoners of war still lie in St. Johns Gardens where St. Johns church and burial ground existed, likewise in the old Necropolis there still lie remains. As for the Irish, thousands died here - 2000 buried at St. Anthonys, Scotland Road alone including in the crypt. I would think it is more likely a cholera or plague pit. Addison Street had sheds where people suffering disease were put and died, it was then known as Sickmans lane, mentioned earlier by me on this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wsteve55
Is that true !! :eek: I've lived by Lower Breck all my life and never heard about this ! I just about remember the White City, I vaguely remember seeing the floodlights from the track when I was little. St Margarets school is there now.
I never heard any of the older Anfielders recount this tale.
here's a picture of the school-
Sorry Lindy,
hope I haven't spooked you:eek: but I only learnt about this in the Echo, in the late 70's early 80's,when I think the scool was built! I used to pass the dogtrack(though I didn't know that's what it was) on the way to work,and thought it looked a right dump,black painted, corrugated iron!
The Echo probably has this in it's archives, and though I can't be sure,even the Merseymart,had some sort of story about it?
Steve.
'Criminologist' Keith Andrews' claims:
http://www.ipa.net/~bcollins/liverpool.html
I just posted on another site and I think it applies here as well--Quote:
Originally Posted by blackvelvet
Well written fiction usually does make for an entertaining read.
Chris
thanks Steve.Quote:
Originally Posted by wsteve55
maybe I did hear about it then if it was in the Echo - - if so I don't know why I've forgotten about it.
If there were bodies there, it mustn't have been known about generally, as I'm sure my grandparents and older neighbours would have known some story about it. Maybe it was kept quiet at the time.
when the school was built do you think the bodies were left to remain there then ??
He needs sectioning - urgentlyQuote:
Originally Posted by blackvelvet
I remember when they were mentioning ghostly monks on that site and claimed a monastry was there. Sure it was in Haunted Lpool 3 or 4 and if the home office has no records, then they won't find it.
Hi Lindy,Quote:
Originally Posted by lindylou
I remember the similarities, with the Old Swan school site,and more recently,Grant gardens, where there are,apparently,still remains,though that was, an official cemetery! It looks like the authorities of the time,weren't too careful about these things,but I suppose during an epidemic,of which there were several,in the 19th century,they had to take desperate measures!
I cant remember for sure,but I think the remains were moved,but based on past experience.....who know's:rolleyes:(Ha,just looking back at my previous post, and ironic i've spelled school,as scool:nod:)
Ta Steve.
I'm always cautious of reports of post-middle ages 'mass graves'. Graveyards and burial sites have always been an important part of Christian belief and were generally well documented, especially in the 19th Century.
For example:
http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/liv...raveyards.html
Some interesting info here about the Liverpool Cholera Riots, though I apreciate you may not all be able to access the full article:
http://jhmas.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/...tract/60/4/478
The enclosed picture is an old ordnance survey map (year unknown) Which clearly shows a burial ground in the area concerned. In fact it shows two burial grounds (disused) alongside each other, (I have marked these with a cross). The grave yard of St Oswalds is also shown.
In the book 'The Iron Church' a history of St Georges church, there is an item related to the Irish immigrants and the city council having to hire thousands of special policemen and the government sending 2;000 troops to Liverpool.
Make of this what you will!
Hi Samp, the two "X's marks the spots" are burial grounds for the nuns and old priests etc. The mass graves where found on your map "under" Percival St and the houses below it, this is where the new school now stands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samp
Martin
Attempting to find some information regarding burials around the Old Swan area.
Had an ancestor who died Rock St, Old Swan in 1913.
Would anyone have an idea to the closest cemetery to Old Swan the person may have been buried at?
I am in Oz so have no idea regarding the districts in Liverpool.
Any help would be great!
:thumbsup:
Liverpool has many cemeteries, Anfield, Yew Tree, ALlerton, Ford etc.
Try looking here first:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....bernia/bur.htm
Let us know how you get on. Martin
It's also possible that they may be buried in a church graveyard.Quote:
Originally Posted by loz
Thanks for the tips!
Thanks for the info, Martin. I though the school was built where I indicated, I stand corrected.Quote:
Originally Posted by hmtmaj
Quote:
Originally Posted by loz
What religion where they? a few of the churches in the area have graveyards.
Looking at the Undates OS Map, my 1830s tithe map and a modern map of the area (using Google Earth) to layer them I have come up with this rather startling result.
Here is the modern map, St Oswalds Church in Red. St Oswalds School in Blue.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3468/...23c5d7.jpg?v=0
Now with the undated OS map, probably late Victorian or early 20th C.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3446/...fcb6e7.jpg?v=0
Now the 1830s tithe map. Harder to make everything line up on this one...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3632/...3c7b37.jpg?v=0
As you can see, there have been buildings next to the church since the 1830s. So there is zero chance of the 'mass grave' being part of a Potato Famine related incident.
I've got some more thoughts on this... i'll post them up later!
I somehow knew you'd come up with a good answer etc Fortinian.
Nice one:PDT11
The Plot thickens. :ninja:
All to the right of the School ( the Tech College in Braodgreen Rd ) has gone now !
Time to dig a little deeper eh :034:
Good Detective work Fortinian, Mart :PDT11
Fortinian, your OS map must be after 1906 as I have the 1906 version and only theleft half of Maddocks St exists on my 1906 map, whereas as it's complete on yours,
Martin
I've been scratching my head reading through these thread's, because I'm almost certain that the mass grave was at the junction of MILL LANE and MONTAGUE ROAD, which is the site of St.Oswalds "new" junior school. The area highlighted blue on the above maps is the infant's school & nursery which were built later. I can remember the work going on at the time, because I went to the "old school" at that time which was on Montague road, directly behind the church.Quote:
Originally Posted by fortinian
The "new" junior school play-ground & infant school playing field is where the old school stood.
Pete E. I can guarantee the Mass Graves were found on the map highlighted in Blue, not the "new" school on Montague road.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete E
I also went to St Oswalds and remember them finding the graves on St. Oswalds St side. Martin :PDT11
Pete E, you are right to be scratching your head... but I have a sneaking suspicion you are right, theat we are looking at the wrong school.
I don't mean to pour doubt on your truthfulness hmtmaj, but childhood memory is a notoriously fickle thing.
If we look at the 1981 Ben Travers article, previously posted there are a few clues that support Pete E...
1. The lead photo seems to show the church some distance from the school... behind quite a lot of trees. Now if you look on the modern googlemap below, you can see where the 'BLUE' school is there are few trees that side of the church. On the other side, where Pete E is speaking about there are many trees and I imagine would give a photo like the one in the article.
But of course, trees can be cut down... so here is some more evidence.
2. Father Patrick James McCartney, parish priest in 1973 is said to have noticed the burials "at the bottom of the garden". We know that the church was surrounded by a graveyard (hardly going to be called a 'garden') and the area where the BLUE school is was already built on... this leads to the conclusion that the priest is talking about the garden to the presbetry, on the rear left hand side of the church and with an extensive garden over the old "Burial Ground (dis.)".
3. The article then goes on to say "three feet beneath St Oswalds scrubland". Hardly what you would call the land where 'Percival Street' was. Scrubland is a weird phrase to use really, on the post-1906 OS map there is an area of trees to the south of the church/presbetry... but would that be scrubland? And even stranger... there was no burial ground marked there...
I suspect that the reporter was getting confused between scrub and garden but still...
The final proof... for me at least is what happens when I map the new Junior School site onto the post-1906 OS map.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3576/...e2ba62.jpg?v=0
The school building covers half of the disused burial ground.
I've convinced myself... but if anyone has any other ideas or can see flaws in my argument i'd love to hear them.
Now you know me, I'm a lover not a fighter :ninja: but ....Quote:
Originally Posted by fortinian
The school, in Blue, on the left, over the burial ground, was built in the late 80's early 90's as the "Old School" on your map, just to the right, wasn't demolished until the mid 80's ( this is the school I went to ) the Junior School.
The School in Blue ( to the right on your map ) is the place in question.
Percival St and the other hosues, along with the Ropers Arms pub, all stood where they are on your map but were demolished late 60's early 70's. The scrubland was where these houses were.
I'm sorry to disappoint you but I was at the school, knew people who lived in the flats ( where Tesco's is ) and could see over the fence, to where they were building.
St. Oswald's Junior School appears on your map just below the church.
St. Oswald's infants School was in what became the Montini Youth club, next to the Wesleyan Chapel ( later St. Oswald's club ) on St. Oswald's st.
I went to both of them up until leaving in 1973.
Then...
The "new" school was started, on the scrubland, where Percival St WAS,
alongside the church in St. Oswalds St.
They then demolished the "Old" school, in montague rd, below the church on your map, then they build the "newer" school", on Montague Rd, next to the burial grounds.
This was the order they done it in.
They have 2 new schools, one built in the 70's and one late 80's.
The one built in the late 70's is the one where the mass graves were found.
Hope this clears things up a bit and we still don't know where they came from :unibrow:
The mystery deepens! Thanks for clearing that up. You see, I only have pieces of paper to go on a very little specific knowledge of the area.
I'm kinda glad you opened this up again, though it does prove troublesome.
I can farily safely say now that I don't think we will ever find out where they came from. I will descend into the Record Office soon and rip apart every bloody thing they have on the church and the schools.
This has really got me going now!
Cheers :PDT_Aliboronz_24:
Martin
This is a great thread :PDT11
Interesting.Please dont let this peter out.
Sorry to disagree with you hmtmaj but I m still convinced that the "mass grave" was at the junction of Mill lane & Montague road.
The quote mentioned in an earlier post said that Fr.McCartney said the graves where "at the bottom of the garden".
The "summer fete's" were always held in the priest's garden, which was between the presbetry and Mill lane.
If the site of the grave had been where Percival street once stood, then surely it would have been unearthed when the foundtion's for the houses & the ropers arms were being dug out. I'm not 100% sure, but I think most houses of that era had celler's. At the very least the pub would of had one.
Father McCartney and those summer fetes - I remember them well. Father McCartney was always lovely......He wore a beret, and always seems to have bicycle clips on his trousers. His grave is to the right of the church.
I always thought the mass grave was in the grounds of the new Infants School.
I can confirm that the mass grave was definately on the site of the current Saint Oswald's Infant school. My sister lived in Pemberton Road at the time and I used to go up to have a nose through the fence (as kids do).
:PDT_Xtremez_42:Burkhilly, JMLE, thanks for the vote of confidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by burkhilly
I know for a fact the mass graves were on the site of Percival st and below ( if you look at the map previous). It was wasteland for a couple of years, I used to play on it :PDT_Xtremez_42:
IF, you go to Tesco's and look towards the school, the mass graves were there, NOT the "new" school built on Montague Rd, as this replaced the older one, half way up Montague rd, demolished mid to late 80's. :034:
Martin.
Just as I was begining to doubt my self, I came up with an inspirational idea! (and I don't have too many of those).
I have just been on the phone to the current Head Mistress of St.Oswald's junior school, who confirmed that it was her school which was built on the "mass grave" site!
Pete.:)