And (not sure what year established) St Michael's Irish Centre. :) :) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
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And (not sure what year established) St Michael's Irish Centre. :) :) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
We are Irish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
Me 75% right through my history. so why cant me and thousands like me have a memorial to our ancestors that had to work the lowest jobs. had to live in the poorest areas, had to fight to survive, but survive they did. this alone should be celebrated here.
Waterways you wrote " If you want Irish history go to Dublin - they will tell you. The famine and the city's role in it, yes of course - but no Irish parades. that is for the Irish to do. And as we don't have many I don't see it happening.If the city has a day for the Irish we should have one for the Welsh too. "
First how do we not have many Irish, they are everywhere, and over 50% of english living here descend from Irish.
There is more to Ireland than just Dublin. my family live in Dublin now. my ancestors are from Dublin, Roscommon, Galway, Clare and Cork.
no need to go rto Dublin for Irish history, lots of it here, just no recognised.
I dont see it happening either, as this city seems ashamed of what is a major influx of Irish in its history.
Yes i agree one for the Welsh too, they are a big part. maybe the walkway along the river could hold statues to all nations who settled here? but will it happen, No chance.
I also think you will find that a lot more Irish settled here than Welsh. the Welsh are a big part, but serious not on the scale of the Irish.
The Italians are another big settlement that are ignored.
I think the links to the Liverpool Irish Festival, Institute of Irish Studies, James Larkin Republican Flute Band, St Michael's Irish Centre, etc. demonstrate that the Irish are acknowledged in Liverpool. However, for Waterways, there is a website for the Welsh in Liverpool here. :rolleyes:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2852029.stm
BBc news 2003.
Yep HowieQuote:
Originally Posted by Howie
But most of this has been around before capital of culture.
I would like to see something happen in 2008
Most of the Capital of Culture events were around before the Capital of Culture!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnomie
PS I'm sure I did see some Irish dancing on the 08 events programme.
How about the Latvians as well! Can't leave them out! What a bunch of biggots!! leaving them out!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Howie
The Larkin band is about a Liverpudlian who was union man, in England, Ireland and the USA.
There was a Friendship Agreement made between Liverpool and Riga in 2002.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
Though didn't a Latvian MP brand Liverpool tourists as 'savages' in 2006?Quote:
Originally Posted by Howie
Theres always going to be something to complain about.
Liverpool having a huge dockland history will have many Influences not remembered.
Who are these we? Don't include me and 99% of Liverpudlians either. We are Irish? The first time I heard Diddly-Dee music live was in London.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnomie
The Welsh did the same as did the English, why single out the Irish who are far from the largest group in the city. Well because you are Irish you want all this.Quote:
Me 75% right through my history. so why cant me and thousands like me have a memorial to our ancestors that had to work the lowest jobs. had to live in the poorest areas, had to fight to survive, but survive they did. this alone should be celebrated here.
We should do more for memorial/part of a museum for the famine and the city's reluctant role in it.
You made that up.Quote:
Waterways you wrote " If you want Irish history go to Dublin - they will tell you. The famine and the city's role in it, yes of course - but no Irish parades. that is for the Irish to do. And as we don't have many I don't see it happening.If the city has a day for the Irish we should have one for the Welsh too. "
First how do we not have many Irish, they are everywhere, and over 50% of english living here descend from Irish.
That is total tripe!!!! Far more Welsh - they built the city!!!! The city is nearly on the border and the accent is heavily Welsh influenced. By the way, there have been two Welsh Eisteddfod's held in Liverpool, one a few years ago was cancelled. That is how heavy the Welsh influence is.Quote:
I also think you will find that a lot more Irish settled here than Welsh. the Welsh are a big part, but serious not on the scale of the Irish.
If you have a thing about being Irish, Ryan Air have planes to Ireland. We are English with a heavy influence from Wales, Ireland, Scandinavia, Scotland, etc, that formed a city culture in Liverpool - and I want to keep it that way. Liverpudlian first and foremost!!!!!
My name is Burns - Scottish. I was invited to a Burns Night at a military club in St. James' in London. Dinner jacket or Scottish regalia with kilt was the attire otherwise no admittance. I was minor celeb as I was of the Clan Burns. They asked why I was not in a kilt being a Burns. I told them I don't go into it as I am a Liverpudlian first and foremost and really don't feel Scottish at all. If I did I would live there.
Waterways I shall refer to you from now on as " The Irish Racist " for that is what you are.
:PDT_Xtremez_12:
Diddly-dee music is an insult, and has nothing to do with the Irish settlement here.
" Don't include me and 99% of Liverpudlians either you say " get a history book and start reading you fool, to state that you must be getting low on ideas to insult the Irish.
Your Welsh builders never outnumbered the Irish- again read your history.
" If you have a thing about being Irish, Ryan Air have planes to Ireland " ha ha ha ha-very good:handclap: im so scared i think i must fly away from such a ruffian as you. A typical attitude to anyone who mentions Ireland. So tell me do you live in Wales? you seem to love the Welsh so much?
What you should do Waterways ( whoops sorry i meant Irish Racist ) is read some history, then come back on here and tell it as it is, not as you foolish head believes it to be. you never could, and i for one will ignore your racist remarks from now on.
so feel free to have the last say, then do me a favour and never speak to me again. I dont like racist and a racist you are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnomie
This is how this thread opened. Just a question, no insults to anyone. by some of the replies ( most from the Irish Racist ) im not surprised that nothing will ever be done. although im certain that most Liverpool people are not of that attitude.
For the racist above
Refuge in Britain
The poorest of the poor never made it to North America. They fled Irish estates out of fear of imprisonment then begged all the way to Dublin or other seaports on the East Coast of Ireland. Once there, they boarded steamers and crossed the Irish Sea to Liverpool, Glasgow, and South Wales. It was a short trip, just two or three hours and cost only a few shillings. Pauper families sometimes traveled for free as human ballast on empty coal ships. Others were given fare money by landlords hoping to get rid of them cheaply. Relief funds intended for the purchase of food were sometimes diverted to pay for the fares.
For many Irishmen, crossing the sea to England was a familiar journey since they regularly worked in the harvest fields of England as seasonal laborers. But for their wives and children, it was a jarring experience. Crewmen scorned and herded them like animals onto crammed decks until the boat was dangerously overloaded. In one case, a crowded steamer heading for Liverpool arrived with 72 dead aboard. The captain had ordered the hatches battened down during a storm at sea and they had all suffocated.
Despite the dangers, the Irish knew that once they landed on Britain's shores they would not starve to death. Unlike Ireland, food handouts were freely available throughout the country. The quality of the food was also superior to the meager rations handed out in Ireland's soup kitchens and workhouses.
The Irish first headed for Liverpool, a city with a pre-famine population of about 250,000, many of whom were unskilled laborers. During the first wave of famine emigration, from January to June of 1847, an estimated 300,000 destitute Irish arrived in Liverpool, overwhelming the city. The financial burden of feeding the Irish every day soon brought the city to the brink of ruin. Sections of the city featuring cheap lodging houses became jammed. Overflow crowds moved into musty cellars, condemned and abandoned buildings, or anywhere they could just lie down. Amid these densely packed, unsanitary conditions, typhus once again reared its ugly head and an epidemic followed, accompanied by an outbreak of dysentery.
The cheap lodging houses were also used by scores of Irish waiting to embark on ships heading for North America. Three out of four Irish sailing for North America departed from the seaport at Liverpool. Normally they had to sleep over for a night or two until their ship was ready to sail. Many of these emigrants contracted typhus in the rundown, lice-infested lodging houses, then boarded ships, only to spend weeks suffering from burning fever out at sea.
On June 21, 1847, the British government, intending to aid besieged Liverpool, passed a tough new law allowing local authorities to deport homeless Irish back to Ireland. Within days, the first boatloads of paupers were being returned to Dublin and Cork, then abandoned on the docks. Orders for removal were issued by the hundreds. About 15,000 Irish were dragged out of filthy cellars and lodging houses and sent home even if they were ill with fever.
By the fall of 1847, the numbers of Irish entering Liverpool had slowed considerably and the housing crisis abated. Glasgow, the second major port of entry, also resorted to deporting the Irish due to similar overcrowding and fever outbreaks. The Irish then headed into the Lowlands and Edinburgh where yet another fever outbreak occurred. Everyone feared fever and thus shunned the Irish no matter how much they pleaded for help. Working men also viewed them as rivals for unskilled jobs.
To avoid deportation, the Irish moved further into the interior of England, Scotland and Wales. But wherever they went they were unwelcome. For the unfortunate Irish deported back home, the worst was yet to come.
Source
http://www.historyplace.com/worldhis...ine/coffin.htm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
It is a known fact that Senior members of The Orange Order all around the world not only in Liverpool do not come from just Working Class Areas.
The Orange Order is influenced by the Free Mason Organisation and members of the Royal Family are high ranking members of the Free Masons.
How working class do you want to get??????????
I most certainly do not find working class people offensive and I am very proud to be working class and indeed very proud to be Irish , BUT, I do find you very anti Irish and your postings offensive.
Please re read your history before you post. End or argument from here. :disgust::disgust:
This is all getting just too silly. Waterworks is an opionated bigot, as can be seen on other threads than this one. But by responding to his posts you're just feeding him opportunities to carry on his mischief.
Why not just ignore his posts, no matter how inflamatory? Never respond to anything he posts and eventually he'll disappear up his own backside.
Responding and arguing your case is pointless when the man chooses to listen to no opinions but his own. Ignore him and deny him his soapbox.
Hard to do but it will pay off in the end!
The Welsh do not make enough fuss about their culture. People do not give the Welsh much recognition. Many people, particularly the younger generation in this city, are not even aware of the Welsh connection in Liverpool. They only ever hear about the Irish connection.
The Welsh are very important to this city.
... any way ... why can't we just be proud of being SCOUSE ???
I am a liverpool girl through and through. Lets just bang the drum for our own Scouseness for a change.
(by the way, I don't have Welsh roots, but I am just speaking up for them)
ran it by a few of my glasgow friends , they've never heard of it, they are catholics and protestants combined it IS a big saying here amongst ex-merchant seaman when asked where do they come from they reply "the capital of ireland... liverpool"Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
I am aware of the orange orders around the world and they have all different classes of people in them. I have read up about them - they are in all countries around the globe.
It is fair to say though, that in L'pool - during my life time at least - the Orange Lodges I have seen are mainly made up of working class people. You hardly see upper class proffessionals and affluents marching along to Southport do you !! That's speaking for Liverppol at least - I can't speak for other places - but I don't see upper class types flocking down to London rd on the 12th :unibrow:
it's because of our "superiority complex " that was discussed a few weeks ago, not many people can cope with the idea that they might not be completely from liverpool and it is not seen as cool to have a connection with another area, i don't know about anybody else but when i was a kid people from anywhere else just absolutely fascinated me because they were different and not like me, they still do to an extentQuote:
Originally Posted by lindylou
yes, but just as many people say 'capital of north Wales' :unibrow:Quote:
Originally Posted by shoney
I do accept that, i've never heard it said , but I know many who have massive roots in north walesQuote:
Originally Posted by lindylou
I love other cultures too and I have had a lot of connections with Liverpool's Caribbean community.Quote:
Originally Posted by shoney
My ex's family are from Guyana - but he was a Scouse lad born here.
There are lots of other people from lots of different cultures, with lots of history, and connections with Liverpool. Why single out one body of people ?
Let's just get on with celebrating our Scouseness too. :neutral:
In Liverpool ALL the Orange Order lodges are in working class areas and always were. The educated middle class never wanted to know. The Orange Order in Liverpool is dying out too. I only know Liverpool, so I can't speak for other places.Quote:
Originally Posted by molly
Glasgow's population is predominantly of Irish decent. Liverpool's is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by shoney
Regarding the Irish influence. There are a few good books by Mike Kelly, one of them on the Liverpool Irish.
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9...5485401qr9.jpg
Liverpool's Irish Connection is a fascinating collection of Liverpool-Irish biographies. The book includes chapters dedicated to Nurse Agnes Jones, Michael James Whitty, James Muspratt, Percy French, Patrick (Dandy Pat) Byrne and James William Carling.
"Michael Kelly's writing is driven by love of his native Liverpool, which reaches back to his ancestral Ireland. In this collection of short biographies, Michael becomes the friend of his subjects, rather than a mere researcher. He writes of them because he is one of them, an Irish Liverpudlian in the grand old tradition."
(David Charters, Liverpool Daily Post)
ISBN 13: 9780955485404 | ISBN 10: 0955485401
Regarding a local history heritage centre on Scotland Road.
Ron Formby of www.scottiepress.org has for some years been trying to secure the old bank building near St. Anthony's Church for this purpose which would include a section for the Irish of which over 2,300 are buried in the Church and its grounds.
Herewith also an email i've received recently from Ron in his efforts.
I am looking to locate historic images of the Liverpool Irish in the Scotland Road area in support of the Scottie Press efforts to have the history, heritage and culture of the Scotland Road area included in the Liverpool Irish Festival 2008. Anyone who has photos or other memorablia that they feel might be able to assist this work can contact me on 0151 482 2000 or email ronformby@scottiepress.org
----- Original Message -----
From: Liverpool Irish Festival
To: ron formby
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:21 PM
Subject: Liverpool Irish Images
Hi Ron
Would you have historic images of the Liverpool Irish, in particular on Scotland Road that might be used on display or as a back drop at an event?
I hope you are well.
Anna
Anna Gilbert
Festival Director
check the phone book and tell me its notQuote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
O'Really? :)
to be sure:handclap:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
The ex-pat Irish shout about their identity wherever they are. Look at Chicago!!! The English do not and neither do the Welsh. The Welsh have far more influence in Liverpool than the Irish - fact!!! The districts they built are proof of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by lindylou
What amazes me is that a myth has built up that Liverpool people are predominantly of Irish decent, even by the locals. Look at this thread. I am a bigot for telling the truth. Laughable!
I find it even more laughable that the city should organise an Irish festival of some kind as if Irish culture predominates the city - which it certainly does not. As I said, the first time I heard Diddly-dee music was in London. The first time I came across lots of Irish people was in London. We just never had them living around us.
I have a problem here with people who say they ARE irish when they are ONLY from Irish descent, there are many many people in liverpool from irish descent but not many irish, exactly like it is in boston.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
As a kid I would hear on TV about the Liverpool Irish. I wondered who they were, where they lived, what they did and what they looked like. Later I found there was no such group of people - as there was say the Liverpool Chinese, a group who have a firm identity, sub-culture and live a specific place in the city. This Liverpool Irish was probably invented by someone living in Surrey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
I think they may have have meant someone born in Ireland and living in Liverpool, which meant precious few.
If you think you are so well educated about your facts and who and what lived around you perhaps you could educate yourself in proper English when talking about Irish Music instead of using the words Diddly Dee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
And the Scottie press's tribute and recognition to the Welsh.
http://www.scottiepress.org/projects/welsh.htm
How many of you know of this plaque?
so you reckon that there was never a large influx of irish people spread over a large space of time that settled in liverpool, regardless of whether they stuck together and associated with each other or not ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
..and like mine the Irish connection is tentative and far, far from 100%... and like mine goes back to the famine which is now a long, long time ago. I have no connection with Ireland. I know of no relatives over there. I'm sure if I have any it would be impossible to find them. My family did nothing that was typically of Irish culture, neither did anyone living around us.Quote:
Originally Posted by shoney
The "Welsh community". They melted in like the rest. And the Welsh were everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
Read what I wrote. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by shoney
however long ago they are still from irish descent, even if there is no connection presently, as I reckon a lot of liverpool is, which goes back to the original q that would the irish be be getting remembered, as there were a lot of irish that broke their backs to get liverpool on the map in the last few hundred yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by Waterways