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Murphy claims that Parry left the Prudential of his own accord (pp.97). I think we can assume that because of his connections Parry would have been asked to resign rather than be sacked. It surely cannot be denied that Parry must have certainly pocketed the £30 Wallace claimed he took. If this were untrue, I'm sure the Police would have have took great pleasure in exposing Wallace as a liar.
Good point, he had 'previous' too didn't he Parry. He comes across to everyone who seemed to have met him as smarmy to say the least. That alone might not make him a murderer but out of all the persons and statements known, it makes him the most likely with the most likely motive.
I don't think Parry was the killer. However, if you think about it, if Parry was Qualtrough and had concocted the fiendish plan, he would also be smart enough to realise that he needed his own equally clever alibi. He would know (and he was proved correct) that the finger of suspicion would immediately point to him...
As I said, there is a solution which fits the facts, and it's quite an obvious one really. [Hint; there is something odd about Parry's statements to the Police]
Lily Lloyd later rubbished one alibi though, it seems he relied too much on his chick and her mother for alibi's.
Tell us who you think it is then and why, something you might think is stonewall might not be if you've overlooked something and you'll be doing better than the rozzers. ;)
Mind you, they seem to have overlooked plenty.
Great having new input into this.
I know in one of Parry's statements he mentions a '21st birthday'...
One thing regarding John Parkes' statement (to Roger Wilkes in 1981) that I don't think anyone has really commented on..."he started rambling again about a bar which he'd hidden outside a doctor's house in Priory Rd. He said he'd dropped it down a grid outside the house..."
Well in 1931 there was a doctor in Priory Rd. In fact there were two...
The first was, of all people, the Wallaces' own doctor, Dr. Louis Curwen, who lived at Number 111.
The second was Dr. George Thomson Bogle, who lived at Number 9.
Outside both houses are drainage grids. If anyone fancies going up there with some picks and crowbars, I'm game!
:034:
me too!!:034::)Quote:
Originally Posted by RodCrosby
Yes Mark, that is a hell of a coincidence (among far too many for my liking), but there is something else in Parry's statement regarding his movements on the Tuesday night, which (to me) doesn't ring true... I wonder if modern-day lexical analysis could shed any light on it....
Yes you're right. Dr Curwen was the Wallaces doctor. I remember when I first heard John Parkes make that statement I thought 'why doesn't someone go and take a look?'Quote:
Originally Posted by RodCrosby
We'd probably be told to push off by the police though!
We'll never crack the case at this rate!!! I'm game to have a go, but I'd need someone else there as a witness. PM me if interested.
Parkes statement has the ring of truth. If it was a 1980s fabrication (and let's not forget that's possible, like the "Diary of JTR" :disgust:) I would have expected him to have been a little too specific, like naming a doctor he found in Kelly's directory...
Have you twigged about the fishy part of Parry's statement?
Btw, earlier this week I did some runs around Anfield and Clubmoor between 8pm and 9pm. Twice I travelled by car from Richmond Park to 49 Lisburn Lane via Lower Breck Rd and West Derby Rd. I did not exceed 30 miles an hour, and the traffic light was against me on both occasions. The first time took 2mins 30secs, the second 2mins 45secs.
I also travelled from the Post Office on Maiden Lane to Richmond Park via Townsend Lane twice. Both times took exactly 4 minutes. However there are some deadly speed bumps for a large part of the route which were not there in 1931. I doubt the route would have taken more than 3 minutes in 1931...
Interesting... I know what you mean about the speed bumps.
I covered the Close milk route twice last year and it took me 5.31 secs & 5.25 respectively. And that was without the stops Close would have had to make. I honestly believe it would have taken Close more like 7-8 minutes. I know he claimed he hurried by I still don't think he would have done it in the time stated.
Yes, I agree regarding Parkes statement. If he would have suddenly appeared and gave that statement (with no previous mention of it) I would have been dubious but he had witnesses to corroborate it at the time. I think he could have added more (in a sensational way) but kept it rather low-key.
Not sure about the fishy part of Parry's statement... I'll have another look at it in a minute.
Are you serious about Priory Road? :unibrow:
Well, Wallace's statement is matter of fact. I did this, I did that. So is Parry's up to a point. But then he changes gear..."I then went out and bought some cigarrettes - Players No3, and the Evening Express from Mr. Hodgson, Post Office, Maiden Lane, on the way to my young lady's house. When I was turning the corner by the Post Office I remembered that I had promised to call for my accumulator at Hignetts in West Derby Rd, Tuebrook. I went there and got my accumulator and then went down West Derby Rd and along Lisburn Lane to Mrs Williamson, 49 Lisburn Lane, and saw her..."Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark R
Well that all sounds a little too careful and specific to me, as if he has rehearsed that bit. He's on his way to Lily's and stops off for fags. Why is it then necessary to identify the exact point that he "remembered" he had to go for the accumulator, or why is it necessary at all to have a reason (remembering) about the accumulator? He doesn't say the precise route he took to get there, but is very careful to state the precise route he took away from Hignett's, which of course also happens to be in a direction away from the vicinity of Richmond Park.
It sounds very much to me as if he is trying to make his movements "dove-tail" together, to conceal something else he was doing in the 30+ minutes between leaving Mrs Brine and arriving at Lily's Lloyd's. Interesting too that the Lloyds effectively say he could have arrived a little after 9pm, and was in any case late. How late? Was he originally expected at 8.30pm?
Yes, although I doubt we'll find anything. The roads have probably been dug-up half a dozen times since 1931....:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark R
Yes I was just reading that. Also that Mrs. Lloyd stated that Parry called [on the 20th] at 9pm or a little later and my daughter told him he was late...Funny that Parry should be quite close to Missouri Road (Hodgson's Post Office) and then suddenly decide to go and get his accumulator...Quote:
Originally Posted by RodCrosby
Well, Mark, you know where this is leading..:)
I think Parry continued up Maiden Lane, turned left into Townsend Lane, left at the Triangle into Rochester Road and then ....
picked someone up...
perhaps at the recreation ground, (which was pitch-black the night I tested this theory)..
He then continued up Lower Breck Rd, turned left into West Derby Rd, perhaps stopping as he said at Hignett's. Somewhere near this part of the route he dropped his passenger off (probably at his home), but not before the passenger had left him with a couple of "souvenirs" - a pair of bloodstained gloves and an iron bar....:eek:
This is all really interesting stuff :handclap:Quote:
Originally Posted by RodCrosby
A certain Mr. Marsden perhaps?Quote:
Originally Posted by RodCrosby
By the way, the police report with the names on has just Mr. Marsden with no first name or initial...
Well, in his second statement, Wallace ominously states "Parry recommended him...", and seems to link Parry and Marsden together. However, I'm surprised the Police appear not to have delved deeper into Marsden's background and movements. But something tells me it was unlikely to have been Marsden.
I would love to be able to compare full transcript statements of all the people that Parry mentions on the Tuesday night. Do we have anything from the Williamsons, in particular?
Not that I know of...There aren't any in the Merseyside police files. Whether there are any down at Kew, I'm not sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by RodCrosby
Mark, what books would you recommend as having the most comprehensive treatment of the case?
I have Murphy's book, and Wilkes and Sayers are on the way, although I read Wilkes many years ago. I am looking out for Goodman's 1987 edition at a reasonable price. Veale seems impossible to obtain.
Would you care to rate the books (with a score out of 10)?
W.F Wyndham Brown - The Trial of William Herbert Wallace
John Rowland - The Wallace Case
F.J.P. Veale - The Wallace Case
Yseult Bridges - Two Studies in Crime
Jonathan Goodman - The Killing of Julia Wallace
Robert Franklin Hussey - Murderer Scot-Free
Roger Wilkes - Wallace The Final Verdict
Richard Waterhouse - The Insurance Man
James Murphy - The Murder of Julia Wallace
Thanks
Hiya Mark. I found the Murphy one very atmospheric so was looking forward to your rating of it, I was surprised you gave it a 9 after mentioning a couple of discrepancies in it on this thread, think it was you anyway?
Haven't got the Wilkes one but remember the radio broadcast. Was disappointed with the conclusion of the Vincent Burke dvd - no mention of Parry or the subsequent Wilkes broadcast - needing bringing a bit more up to date, think i've mentioned that before.
I'm game for a Priory Road stake out. LindyLou can keep dixie.
Hi Ged,Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
yes, I have been critical of Murphy's but I think it is well written and researched and, like you say, very atmospheric. The Wilkes book is excellent as well, as is what most people regard as the cornerstone Wallace Case book -The Killing of Julia Wallace by Jonathan Goodman.
That Vincent Burke DVD you mention - is that a radio broadcast from Radio Merseyside? I have a CD of the Radio Merseyside programme. He is inaccurate on quite a few facts on it though..
:handclap:Could we find her though?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
I know VB used to have a 15 min slot on Roger Phillips BBC Radio Merseyside programme where he mentioned this case on more than one occassion but in collaboration with the BBC he also brought out a murders dvd with 5 or so cases on it and it's available in the shop at Radio Merseyside, Hanover st.
Thanks GedQuote:
Originally Posted by Ged
Count me in, I will bring the donuts! :unibrow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
And the excuse when the coppers see 15 stood around prising a grid up is i've lost my car keys down there - and we've never seen or heard of each other before, just helpful passers by. (for this - park car nearby - not 4 streets away or it will look bang on)
Thinking on my feet here like Parry.........
Outcome may not be as serious though...........
ps. The car being nearby may shield us too.
(be careful not to drop Daisy's donut wrappers on the street as Rozzers may get us for a secondary offence of littering - having been given short shrift regarding the 'grid issue')
The last posting will self explode after 5 mins in case any fuzz are on line ;)
Would that be 'littering with intent?'Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
Cheers Mark, that was very helpful.
Yes I've got the Marshall Cavendish magazine, and as you say the photos are excellent, as well as the background material on MacFall and Moore. There's another mag I'm trying to obtain "Real Life Crimes - Time enough to kill", first published in 1994, and re-issued in 2004, but dunno if it's any good.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/REAL-LIFE-CRIM...QQcmdZViewItem
I've also got this month's True Detective magazine, which is OK.
Murphy's book is good on atmosphere, and he has unearthed some new angles, such as the "significance" of the chess match-list, but I think his conclusions are weak. There was no evidence of anyone taking a bath in Wolverton Street and the psychological profiling stuff is highly selective and speculative. The lack of an index is unforgiveable.
Hi Rod,Quote:
Originally Posted by RodCrosby
yes, that is the biggest doubt I have regarding the guilt of Wallace. Murphy's suggestion that he took a bath holds no water (forgive the pun). The bathroom/fittings were checked for blood and there was no proof that the bath had been used. I believe if there was blood there, it would have been detected (especially considering the time [or lack of it] WHW would have had at his disposal). You're right also regarding the lack of an index. I think most (if not all?) Bluecoat Press books suffer from this drawback.
I walked past 24B North John Street before and someone had left the door open. I had a quick look inside. The steps leading downstairs, and the banister rails...Absolutely gutted I didn't have my camera on me - I would have taken a few photos. I'll make sure I have it on me next time.
Forgive me if it's in this thread, but has anyone staged a trial of Wallace, like the Maybrick one last year?
this made me actually laugh out loud in work!!:eek::)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
Not to my knowledge, but of course Wallace was tried more than once, at the Crown Court and then the Court of Appeal. Also seldom mentioned was the mock trial held by the Prudential Staff Union which unanimously by secret ballot found in his favour and agreed to contribute to his defence fund.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaisyChains
Wasn't there also a mock trial in the 1960s/70s held in Liverpool legal circles?
That seems to ring a bell.Quote:
Originally Posted by RodCrosby
I thought I had read something about a trial.
There was a 'mock' trial held by the Medico Legal Society in 1977. I think Wallace was found guilty.Quote:
Originally Posted by RodCrosby
I think Tom Slemen held a mock trial at St George's Hall in about 2001. Not sure but I think it involved the case against the Johnstons. Incidentally, I wrote to the 08 Culture Company over 2 years ago asking if they would be doing anything connected with the Wallace Case/Trial. I'm still waiting for a reply :rolleyes:
Hmmm I wouldn't hold your breath there Mark!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark R
We should set something up for the summer.
In the excellent web page
Chess and the Wallace Murder Case
http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/wallace.html
the author states.
"A curious reference which we are currently unable to explain appears on page 48 of Six Trials by Winifred Duke (London, 1934): ‘... Mr Qualtrough, whose real name was subsequently suspected to be Harris.’ "
I have emailed the author with this advice.
"Perhaps Miss Duke, conscious of the libel laws in 1934, can be forgiven for being a little cryptic. The common Welsh surname "Harris" means "son of Harry", and the common Welsh surname Parry also means "son of Harry" [Ap Harry]...."
http://genealogy.about.com/library/s...ame-HARRIS.htm
http://www.searchforancestors.com/su...in/p/parry.php
More to the point, it thus appears that as early as 1934, Parry was suspected of being Qualtrough, and came as close to being named in print as the libel laws allowed...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark R
I'm here !
Bogle was our family doctor. My grandmother knew Dr Bogle snr. then his son Ian took over the practice in later years ( it's not so long ago Dr Ian Bogle retired). The original practice was on Priory rd/corner of Argyle rd, that's where it was for decades, but in recent years relocated along LowerBreck rd.Quote:
Originally Posted by RodCrosby
The other doctors which used to be Curwen is further along Priory rd towards Arkles lane end.
Mark, ask the older members of your family - - all Anfielders knew the Bogles.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/386234.stm
Don't be shouting 'I'm here' to the old bill when keeping dixie for us though Lindy :)
Welcome back. :PDT_Aliboronz_11:
A photo of Wallace taken in May 1931: