Shanghai-style plan

[Peter McGurk]

Peel want it filled in - another water space will then be gone. The city fathers are fools for not drawing the line on dock filling. IF they ddi then no application would come in with docks filling as a part of it.

I guess in an ideal world, you could do that. In the real world you have to balance posterity with 'progress'.

There seems to be a basic contradiction in what you say. You want to preserve the remnants of the past and presumably the spirit that built them. Back in the day, that same spirit would have had no hesitation whatsoever in filling in every dock if it made more money.

Peel may have wanted to fill the East Waterloo Dock (did they own it then???) but the fact is, it isn't filled and no docks will be filled for Liverpool Waters (or Wirral Waters) either. So something is working in your favour.

Just reading the red text on your signature, no we wouldn't visit Venice if the canals were filled because that's all there is. Venice's canals are the lifeblood of the city. They are the only way to get around. It's different, unusual and attractive.

What else does Venice do but be seen? Do you mean all Liverpool does or did or has to offer is derelict docks? Do people really come to see derelict docks or even working docks? I think not.

For the greater part of Liverpool Docks' lives they've lived behind high walls cutting the city off from the river. I don't think that's what's made Liverpool unique. The comings and goings of a great working port are what has given us a unique character - not empty docks.

Yes, water is attractive to live by and even play in or on but if you can't get life out of the docks, they may as well be filled. As it happens it seems that Peel and the city agree. Why else would Peel apply to create marinas and the like and the city support them?

If you're not flogging a dead horse perhaps you're fighting a battle already won?

[Waterways]

There seems to be a basic contradiction in what you say. You want to preserve the remnants of the past and presumably the spirit that built them. Back in the day, that same spirit would have had no hesitation whatsoever in filling in every dock if it made more money.

We live here now with what they left us. We do not have to think like them. Most of the history has gone which was the buildings around the water spaces. We can make a future Amsterdam out of them. You can't do that without water.

Peel may have wanted to fill the East Waterloo Dock (did they own it then???) but the fact is, it isn't filled and no docks will be filled for Liverpool Waters (or Wirral Waters) either. So something is working in your favour.

I think British Waterways may own West Waterloo - not sure. The master plan is filling in West Waterloo - Peel claim to build a cruise liner terminal off the dock so it needs filling. So this is not working to "our" favour.

Just reading the red text on your signature, no we wouldn't visit Venice if the canals were filled because that's all there is. Venice's canals are the lifeblood of the city. They are the only way to get around. It's different, unusual and attractive.

The docks were lifeblood of Liverpool --and still are. Amsterdam and Venice were commercial cities - that is why the canal;s were built. They converted the redundant commercial canals and buildings to residential and leisure use. Which is exactly what Liverpool should be doing.

Do people really come to see derelict docks or even working docks? I think not.

They do now that many of them are expanding onto them and opening the river up to the city beyond.

Click on the link in my sig and read the pages.

[Peter McGurk]

We live here now with what they left us. We do not have to think like them. Most of the history has gone which was the buildings around the water spaces. We can make a future Amsterdam out of them....

I think a new cruise liner terminal (in part of the West Waterloo Dock) is a very significant step forward and very much in the city’s favour (and in favour of your position). I would thank Peel for it. I’ve no need to react to Peel’s thinking, I prefer to think for myself, thank you.

I don’t think you can be referring to ‘Old Amsterdam’ (with the canals). Liverpool docks have neither ever had nor ever will have, that character. The canals are Lilliputian in comparison. Different entirely.

***

Perhaps you mean the regeneration of the Eastern Harbour District (ie., the docks) in Amsterdam. As it happens someone gave me a large coffee table book on the ‘New Amsterdam’ a while back.

From what I can see, very little use is made of the water. It’s a dull place indeed and may just as well have been entirely dry. It hasn’t enticed me to go there and have a look.

***

'Most of the buildings have gone' but 'we can make a New Amsterdam out of them'??? You can see how this is contradictory.

In any event, you are entirely mistaken that anything in the central and north docks other than Seaforth Docks are currently any kind of lifeblood for the city. They are a post-industrial wasteland. Liverpool is already converting what remains of the buildings into residential and leisure use.

The rest are long gone, such as they were. And as they were (tin sheds), they would have restricted the kind of bold development that put them there in the first place. Perhaps unfortunate but true - but it is flogging a dead horse to try to bring them back.

It seems to me that we've kept the best and most re-usable and leveled the rest to make way for new and bold development. Result.

***

The Leeds and Liverpool canal (being the only canal) is a different story again. The Stanley Dock end is being ‘regenerated’ and the rest of the canal in the city has been re-opened/made safe and it is hoped to see sequential development along it as an important water-resource in the city.

The city are also investigating the further exploitation of the waterfront to bring the city to the river. I’m sure we’d all like to see it as the longest and most successful waterfront in the UK.

***

Peel have gone to great lengths to appease the Luddites at UNESCO. The proposed skyline respects both the Liver Building and Stanley Dock complexes, yet is still bold and imaginative.

What more could you want? - if it's not a battle won, it's definitely getting there.

.

[Waterways]

I think a new cruise liner terminal (in part of the West Waterloo Dock) is a very significant step forward and very much in the city’s favour (and in favour of your position). I would thank Peel for it. I’ve no need to react to Peel’s thinking, I prefer to think for myself, thank you.

Gain some facts before thinking The amount of water spaces infilled is the equivalent to a whole port in come cities.

I don’t think you can be referring to ‘Old Amsterdam’ (with the canals). Liverpool docks have neither ever had nor ever will have, that character. The canals are Lilliputian in comparison. Different entirely.

Liverpool's unique interconnected docks system (largest in the world) can crate a whole waterscaped city in themselves. The waters are an ideal transport route as well. I'm sure people in Amsterdam say what you said when the commercial side subsided.

Most of the buildings have gone but we can make a New Amsterdam out of them??? You can see how this is contradictory.

It is not contradictory.

The port is still; very important top the city.

but it is flogging a dead horse to try to bring them back.

Who want to put back old warehouses? A Liverpool Waters, but done properly with proper rapid-transit transport connections to ensure success, which has passed them by.

Peel have gone to great lengths to appease the Luddites at UNESCO.

If keeping our heritage is being Luddite then......

Peel care only of Peel and the profits they make from increased land values. Even derelict it gains in value.

What more do I want, well what we all need really, not a want, is stop the water space filling to line the pockets of rich organizations. Enough is enough. In fact much of it can be re-excavate, like Toxteth and Harrigton Docks when the industrial estate is moved to a proper location.

The scope fro Birkenhead Dock, which run inland is phenomenal -right between two towns which can make a proper centre. Wallasey doesn't have a centre being realistically a suburb of Liverpool.

BTW, Wallasey needs a rail tunnel connecting to Liverpool - Birkenhead has one. Best is North End Liverpool to Wallasey. Merseyrail then can serve large parts of Wallasey currently unserved, and the north end of Liverpool bringing both banks together. She should be easy to get from Anfield to Wallasey and beyond then.

[Peter McGurk]

Gain some facts before thinking

I've just read Kev's further instructions for this forum. I'm new here but this post doesn't strike me as particularly friendly or factual or that useful. I'm not particularly thin-skinned. What I do doesn't call for being thin-skinned.

However I do have a lot of facts at hand as it happens, having spent a number of years studying the subject, the area and the city both professionally and privately. I'm ready to debate the issues calmly and hopefully as much for my benefit and information as yours and everyone else here.

So what's it to be? Rational discussion or yet more internet macho and bs. Up to you (or perhaps not)

---------- Post added at 05:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------

Liverpool's unique interconnected docks system (largest in the world) can crate a whole waterscaped city in themselves.

The amount of water infilled is pretty small considering there are seven and half miles of docks on the Liverpool side alone and a drop in a bucket compared to anything but (pick a small port).

You’re quite right that a lot more could have been achieved with some but it wasn’t. Times change. Sometimes for the better.

You appear to make much of the comparison with Amsterdam but the two cities are worlds apart in almost every respect

Whilst by no means unique Liverpool or its Docks could be another Venetian or Dutch paradise but you don’t seem to say anywhere why they should be or how they could be. Like it or not, money matters.

I’m sure you will say that profit or economics are unimportant compared with the ‘heritage’ of the place but unless you can make the economic case persuasively to those that make those decisions (or you’re ready with your own money), you really are going to have to live with it, much as the Luddites eventually had to live with the Spinning Jenny (or the like)

And yes, if all of Peel Waters went ahead the best way to meet demand is a new rail tunnel under the Mersey. It would be a nice problem to have.

[The Abwehr]

You may be new here Peter,but it's good to see you are now providing your informed opinion on here as well as a certain football forum.
Happy posting