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    Came fourth...now what? Oudeis's Avatar
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    Default Shanghai-style plan

    A letter in today's Guardian (link 1) which gives a link to the earlier story (link 2)...


    ADVERTISING




    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/ma...ool-waterfront


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/ma...sk?INTCMP=SRCH

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    Senior Member Lizzie1's Avatar
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    Before all the monstrosities were built!

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    Junior Member Harry's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Never been better!

    What monstrosities?
    The Pier Head looks better NOW than its ever done.
    As recently as the 1980's, it was a tramps toilet.
    The Liver building aint so pretty.
    People are far too precious about everything in this city, you would think we lived in Venice or Florence the way people go on about out tedious 200 metre long "waterfront".

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    I absolutely love the waterfront the way it is now. The contrast in styles, ages and building materials in the architecture makes it a remarkable public open space.

    Standing near the floating bridge area and looking South on a bright, sunny day gives a great vista.

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    Senior Member Howie's Avatar
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    Default Liverpool and China

    Here comes the yuan

    A city’s bid to revive its fortunes through the local and the global


    AT THE new Museum of Liverpool (above), a sleek limestone affair of Danish design, the city’s Chinese community, which began with an influx of sailors at the start of the 19th century, gets an exhibit to itself. The emphasis seems a little odd, until you consider the city’s regeneration strategy, which rests on a characteristically 21st-century mix of the local and the global. The aim is to use Liverpool’s storied past to attract investment from around the world—and from China in particular.

    More >>

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    Unhappy PEELING HELL ON THE MERSEY WATERSIDE

    Before we get carried away with the notion of Chinese investment and how Merseyside will benefit, a word of warning. This month thge UK's electronics industry meets to discuss how China's role in counterfeiting goods has affected the UK ( and western) economies generally. It's worth reading before the Peel offer is considered. Peel are in a hurry to get their deal passed.
    Peel's response to UNESCO report:-
    Peel, however, has said the report is flawed and has refused to agree to any demands to remove skyscrapers.
    Lindsey Ashworth, its director of investments, told the Liverpool Daily Post:
    "It is not about making a profit. The opportunity is now. I think it is a
    shame that we cannot reach agreement. But we are right, and they are
    completely wrong."
    Apologies to anyone who tried this link to Farnell electronics site. It was working then closed down overnight.
    http://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-28410/l/about-counterfeiting
    Here is a screen grab copy of the pageClick image for larger version. 

Name:	About Counterfeiting - element14_1315092161138.jpg 
Views:	128 
Size:	200.2 KB 
ID:	22948
    I've often stated my views on Peel and UNESCO, I'll not expand on cockle pickers and China. This Far East country can't look out for it's own, can we really expect to live off the backs of the Chinese poor? It's distasteful, disgraceful and the whole idea should shame Merseysiders.
    Yes, I'm probably viewing this on a Chinese component screen (actually a Philips).
    Chas

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    Senior Member az_gila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    What monstrosities?
    The Pier Head looks better NOW than its ever done.
    As recently as the 1980's, it was a tramps toilet.
    The Liver building aint so pretty.
    People are far too precious about everything in this city, you would think we lived in Venice or Florence the way people go on about out tedious 200 metre long "waterfront".
    IIRC, it was a tramps toilet because of the bus station.

    It can be a nice open space public area without the ugly museum. A new ferry terminal and a cruise terminal that blended in, along with the open space and artwork would have fit the bill nicely.

    It would have still been "a remarkable public open space".

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    Senior Member Doris Mousdale's Avatar
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    The old buildings on Shanghai's waterfront are very reminicent of the Pier Head . If you watch the opening sequence of Empire of the Sun a movie from a book by J G Ballard who grew up in Shanghai you can see the shots of The Bund ( Shanghai's Pier Head)
    Since the end of the cultural revolution there has been amazing building development in Shanghai but most on the Pudong side of the river. The iconic buildings on the Bund are in amazing shape and the Chinese are proud of the heritage value of the original buildings.New towers are all over the city some 88 stories high with open atriums and nightclubs on the penthouse floor this is all good but they also have 20 million people living in Shanghai- and that is just the legals so there are plenty of takers for apartments and office space. It would be hard to justify any sort of similar development in Liverpool and the one thing that Chinese want is a return on their investment either money out or people in.
    Last time I visited and I have been there many times it had become very westernised with a Marks and Spencers and a Barbie shop the latest additions.The people part of Shanghai is going through massive clearance and many thousands are thrown out of their homes and workplaces roads are developed almost instantly.There is no going back once the blot on the landscape is there

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    Junior Member Harry's Avatar
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    Why would it be hard?
    Without the buildings and work, you won't get the people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doris Mousdale View Post
    The old buildings on Shanghai's waterfront are very reminicent of the Pier Head . If you watch the opening sequence of Empire of the Sun a movie from a book by J G Ballard who grew up in Shanghai you can see the shots of The Bund ( Shanghai's Pier Head)
    Since the end of the cultural revolution there has been amazing building development in Shanghai but most on the Pudong side of the river. The iconic buildings on the Bund are in amazing shape and the Chinese are proud of the heritage value of the original buildings.New towers are all over the city some 88 stories high with open atriums and nightclubs on the penthouse floor this is all good but they also have 20 million people living in Shanghai- and that is just the legals so there are plenty of takers for apartments and office space. It would be hard to justify any sort of similar development in Liverpool and the one thing that Chinese want is a return on their investment either money out or people in.
    Last time I visited and I have been there many times it had become very westernised with a Marks and Spencers and a Barbie shop the latest additions.The people part of Shanghai is going through massive clearance and many thousands are thrown out of their homes and workplaces roads are developed almost instantly.There is no going back once the blot on the landscape is there
    Here's a Google of images of Shanghai's Bund showing the older buildings and the more modern buildings that have been more recently added to their Pier Head-style waterfront. I agree that there is some similarity to Liverpool's Pier Head.

    Chris
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    The similarities with one of our twin cities has not gone un-noticed by the people who can do something about it and are trying to. These images are in what is becoming a marveled at structure, our new museum.

    USE THE SCROLL BAR BELOW TO SEE THE FULL PICTURES




    Uploaded with ImageShack.us




    Uploaded with ImageShack.us


    You know, it is commonly known that familiarity can breed contempt and I often think we beat ourselves up sometimes. All I see are people from other nations oohing and wowing at what we have in and around the Pier Head now including the new museum. I know as I have spoken with them, I make it my interest to.

    What I remember of the Pier Head in the 70s, my playground (amongst others) is yes, having a laugh and a good run around the place but it was fume and smoke filled with the buses - the Albert Dock was dereliction at its worst with mud filled docks and then in the 90s the Pier Head became desolate.

    I was down there at dusk over the weekend watching the crane putting the new landing stage pylons in and even then in the mild autumn night it was packed with people coming and going, criss crossing, taking photographs etc - many obviously not from Liverpool, not even from the UK. It must be one of the most photographed places anywhere.
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    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

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    Member Peter McGurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizzie1 View Post


    Before all the monstrosities were built!
    Even as a kid I can remember being just a bit disappointed by the 'skyline' on the Mersey. I remember coming in on the Manx Maid (the boat in the picture??) from holidays on the IOM and the Liver Buildings seemed a bit like a pimple on a pool table. Miles and miles of flat 'urban landscape'.

    There was a study done in the 60s into how the city might develop to frame the Pier Head Buildings, either by building a backdrop of tall buildings or by building waves of taller buildings either side of the Liver Buildings - like long bookends with the Pier Head as the centrepiece. It keeps the link with the past but builds on for the future.

    Many other global cities have done the same, some more successfully than others - notably Sydney and even New York where the focal point of a composition is the Opera House and Bridge in one case and the Statue of Liberty in the other.

    There's no point in standing still. Even the Liver Buildings were a 'monstrosity' to some when it was built (and it committed today's cardinal sin of filling in a dock). But it sent out the message that Liverpool was fit, healthy and open for business and today's skyline should do the same.

    Liverpool's skyline is getting stronger and the better for it.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    There's no point in standing still. Even the Liver Buildings were a 'monstrosity' to some when it was built (and it committed the cardinal sin of filling in a dock). But it sent out the message that Liverpool was fit, healthy and open for business and today's skyline should do the same.

    Liverpool's skyline is getting stronger and the better for it.
    The rejection by the city's Lib-Dems of the Brunswick Quay Tower was criminal. It would have been built by now. The city shot itself in the foot.

    The filling of historic George's Dock was criminal indeed. The Three Graces would have been far better behind the dock giving an animated water feature in front - the dock with small boats. All these three monolithic buildings have done is create dead space around them. The Pier Head has had 4 complexions in my lifetime - it never seems to work no matter what they do. I hope this new reincarnation works. The Strand behind the Three Graces needs a lot doing to it to create animation. It needs cafes, etc, not faceless offices. The inner motorway, that was partially built along there needs removing. It also divides the Albert Dock from the main bulk of the centre - a real dumb idea and one of the few parts of the 1960s Shankland plan to get built. What was teh city thinking of when they adopted the ideas of this lunatic?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    People are far too precious about everything in this city, you would think we lived in Venice or Florence the way people go on about out tedious 200 metre long "waterfront".
    It can be like Venice if the dock waters are developed properly and prevented from being filled in. The potential is enormous.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    There's no point in standing still. Even the Liver Buildings were a 'monstrosity' to some when it was built (and it committed today's cardinal sin of filling in a dock).
    They get filled on a regular basis. Even in a World Heritage Site Buffer Zone. Disgusting. This abomination borders Liverpool Waters - now that is going to be a big success now isn't it? This now, with the Sandon Dock plant, ensures the dock waters will remain just the south end and up to central for leisure and resident expansion. What a waste! They no vision. Today.....

    £200m United Utilities waste treatment plant for Wellington Dock approved

    A NEW £200m waste treatment plant will be built on the banks of the River Mersey to continue improving its water quality.

    United Utilities was yesterday given planning permission for the new complex in Liverpoolís northern docklands.

    The scheme involves draining Wellington Dock and partially reclaiming it to create a huge plant capable of handling 11,000 litres of wastewater a second Ė the equivalent of re-fuelling the average family car 200 times every second.

    As part of the new improvements, sections of Sandon Dock will also be upgraded and the existing outfall will be extended into the River Mersey resulting in dispersing treated waste water even further into the estuary to meet new EU standards.

    The new plant must be built by 2016 after United Utilities was prosecuted by the Environment Agency for polluting the Mersey.

    Sarah Jakubiak of United Utilities said Wellington Dock was the only available site for the development.

    It falls within the buffer zone for the World Heritage Site (WHS), and English Heritage had expressed concerns about the scheme. However, Ms Jakubiak said English Heritage had withdrawn their objections after United Utilities had presented their plans to a recent monitoring mission to the WHS by Unesco.

    Liverpool council said yesterday that it was prepared to approve the plans for the plant because of the exceptional circumstances and because it was desperately needed.

    http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/...#ixzz1j9PHnTii

    Sandon Dock was filled to create a waste sewage plant for "Manchester". In London they are building the Super Sewer than is a massive pipe put under the bed of the River Thames and both banks of the river empty into it. It takes sewage to a treatment pant nearer to the sea.

    Liverpool could have done the same by laying a pipe in the river bed and taking sewage and waste to nearer Liverpool Bay.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Senior Member gregs dad's Avatar
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    What I don`t like about the grand schemes of the docks, is they will become off limits to ordinary folk who don`t reside or work there, similar to the Queens, and Waterloo with their private estates.

    Just a thought, what has happened to the coastal path planned a few years ago when we supposed
    to be able to walk the Mersey to Crosby from Otterspool to join up the Lancashire coastal walk.
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    And they're not off limits now Joe?

    On the contrary, the likes of the Victoria clock tower will be brought back into the land of the living and shops and commercial businesses are part of the scheme - quite unlike the Waterloo 'private' estates which were very public when I walked down there to take some photos.

    Even if it were private (and it's not) it's private now and out of bounds for everybody and an eyesore to boot with wasted opportunities for regeneration and the income to the city that having people living and working there will bring to it - the knock on effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    And they're not off limits now Joe?

    On the contrary, the likes of the Victoria clock tower will be brought back into the land of the living and shops and commercial businesses are part of the scheme - quite unlike the Waterloo 'private' estates which were very public when I walked down there to take some photos.

    Even if it were private (and it's not) it's private now and out of bounds for everybody and an eyesore to boot with wasted opportunities for regeneration and the income to the city that having people living and working there will bring to it - the knock on effect.
    I would love to see the Victoria Tower rehabilitated where it is, or, if that is not possible, moved to Albert Dock where it can be seen and enjoyed. It is an unknown treasure of Liverpool's dockland.

    Chris
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    I was in Shanghai in 1981 and saw a crowd outside a store - looking at a fridge in the window. It was clearly something they hadn't seen before. Thirty years on the city is dominated by neon signs.

    Took photographs of The Bund and about three years ago I showed them to a student from Shanghai - the change was so great she initially didn't recognise her own city.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    The Strand behind the Three Graces needs a lot doing to it to create animation... The inner motorway, that was partially built along there needs removing. It also divides the Albert Dock from the main bulk of the centre - a real dumb idea and one of the few parts of the 1960s Shankland plan to get built. What was teh city thinking of when they adopted the ideas of this lunatic?

    In its way, the Shankland plan was visionary (if dramatically flawed in retrospect). Coming out of post-war austerity, it represented a brave new world for the city and the investment perhaps something of a reward for the pasting taken in WWII.

    We know now that we can work in the sky and even live there to a degree but generally speaking and no matter how high the buildings are, we like our feet on the ground when we’re moving about and generally we prefer to walk rather than ride (as long as it’s not too far).

    So you’re right, The Strand should be full of ‘active frontage’ at street level and to be fair, council and the planners have always pushed for this.

    The micro-climate is poor if better than at the Pier Head itself but the biggest problem is lack of people - of course millions used to pass to and from the ferry or the bus station. Now, those are gone, or all but gone. Buildings on the 'Strand Wall' are empty and there’s plenty of room for restaurants and night life in less exposed parts of the city.

    Many cities have dealt with the problem of a big, wide road cutting off the waterfront - usually by making the waterfront worth getting to. There’s a lot more to happen at the Pier Head to make it worth a visit.

    Rebuilding the Goree Piazza would help reduce the width, slow traffic and help the pedestrian to cross but without a strong reason to go to the Pier Head or to The Strand itself they’re never going to be what they were, road or no road.

    ---------- Post added at 05:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    They get filled on a regular basis. Even in a World Heritage Site Buffer Zone. Disgusting....Liverpool could have done the same by laying a pipe in the river bed and taking sewage and waste to nearer Liverpool Bay.
    It is right that a lot can be done to keep the old docks as docks with some imagination and lateral thinking but it’s not always the right thing to do. The docks were built in a spirit of enterprise and new uses could and should be found likewise. Sometimes that means filling them in, albeit only with very strong reason.

    George’s Dock for example was both obsolete and something of an eyesore by all accounts and building in it has given the Liver Building the prominence that has helped make it so famous - a positive, forward-thinking and imaginative outcome.

    Putting them to work in one way or another seems the most sustainable and people will always be drawn to live by the water. The V&A Waterfront at Cape Town is a good example of an old port that has continued to work while the commercial port has moved on. The recent announcement of Pelican Tall Ship cruises from the Albert Dock complex is good news in a similar way.

    The waste treatment plant might seem negative but it has made huge improvements in the quality of the Mersey and as far I know doesn’t treat the Mersey itself or any waste in it from Manchester.

    In any event it would have been extraordinarily difficult to find anywhere else to put it North of Seaforth and it’s hard to see how untreated waste can be pumped into Liverpool Bay.

    ---------- Post added at 06:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    I would love to see the Victoria Tower rehabilitated where it is, or, if that is not possible, moved to Albert Dock where it can be seen and enjoyed. It is an unknown treasure of Liverpool's dockland.

    Chris
    I've often thought I'd like to live in it but the bus service probably isn't that good...

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    It is right that a lot can be done to keep the old docks as docks with some imagination and lateral thinking but itís not always the right thing to do. The docks were built in a spirit of enterprise and new uses could and should be found likewise. Sometimes that means filling them in, albeit only with very strong reason.
    I can think of realigning quays and the likes as being acceptable, but there is no reason for mass filling, as per Bidston, Toxteth, Harrigton, Herculaneum, Trafalgar, etc. There is enough land around to put arenas on.

    Once the docks are gone they never come back.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Senior Member gregs dad's Avatar
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    Ged all Waterloo and the residential part of the Queens are still private, You cannot pass through the Wateloo dock gates unless you live there I was only there yesterday, there is even a gate security lodge.
    Over in Birkenhead you can still walk around the east float converted warehouses on the docks see pic


    old warehouse,birkenhead by exacta2a, on Flickr
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    Senior Member Doris Mousdale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    I was in Shanghai in 1981 and saw a crowd outside a store - looking at a fridge in the window. It was clearly something they hadn't seen before. Thirty years on the city is dominated by neon signs.

    Took photographs of The Bund and about three years ago I showed them to a student from Shanghai - the change was so great she initially didn't recognise her own city.
    I have been going to Shanghai regularly for the past 15 years ,
    Kevin the change has been so fast and dramatic that if you go back after six months whole swathes of the place are totally different. What they do while all the rebuilding is going on is plant any waste areas with trees and plants so there is plenty of greenery around. Also young rich Chinese, and there are plenty of them, are buying up the old merchant houses for homes , galleries and restaurants which mix well with the new builds.Yes the air quality is questionable but they plant the top edges of flyovers with green plants to clean the air.
    They all have fridges, watercoolers/heaters huge sound systems even in the tiniest apartments Maserati showrooms and high end designer stores abound . Ikea was like a football stadium with over 40 checkout tills all in action.Yes the old streets and neigbourhoods are fast disappearing but the new regeneration is happening real fast no dithering allowed.

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    Best case, I would always want to keep the docks but it's not necessarily the filling of the docks that's a problem, it's what you put in them that matters.
    I think it is that they are allowed to fill that is the problem. That encourages the easy and quick fast buck route. A prime example is Kings Dock. The branches were filled in to put a large ugly arena and chara-banc park on it, that could have gone on the land side of Kings/Queens Dock. See:
    http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/watercity/KingsDock.html

    The in and out nature of the branches meant a wonderful waterscape to work around. Some architects would be in their element designing around that. About 25% of the branches could have been filled in at the river end to give more depth to the land there. What a missed a opportunity. Leave the docks as they are and design around them. It is quite simple. Then unique waterscaped districts emerge. The only positive docks filling was actually St.George's Dock, although by leaving the docks it could have been better. All other docks filling has been negative. Nothing better came out of it.

    The council should make it clear that there will be no more water space filling. The fact that they can means the developers use a guerrilla campaign to get their way. They wear the city down and get their way. If they can't do that they will not even consider filling in docks, no more than filling in the River Mersey.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
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    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    I can think of realigning quays and the likes as being acceptable, but there is no reason for mass filling, as per Bidston, Toxteth, Harrigton, Herculaneum, Trafalgar, etc. There is enough land around to put arenas on.

    Once the docks are gone they never come back.
    Of course our first choice should be to keep the docks - always.

    We like water. We like to live by water. We like the reflections, the movement, the kid in us - the poetry of it. And in Liverpool's case, we appreciate the greatness by association - we live(d) in this great city that built this great thing.

    But none of those things were in the minds of those that built them. Profit and expediency more like.

    It is really, really sad when someone can only imagine two dull brick towers or a waste treatment plant in them but at least in the latter there's been a huge benefit to marine life in the river.

    It's a sign of the differing times that the 'great and glorious' Liver Buildings rose out of a filled-in dock then but we have a waste plant now.

    Best case, I would always want to keep the docks but it's not necessarily the filling of the docks that's a problem, it's what you put in them that matters.

    ---------- Post added at 10:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by gregs dad View Post
    Ged all Waterloo and the residential part of the Queens are still private, You cannot pass ...
    The Mersey Waterfront Regional Park docs are archived here: http://merseybasin.org.uk/archive/items/MBC143.html

    The footlink was or is intended to provide public access around the Mersey from New Brighton to Southport via Runcorn. The problem in this part of the world always was, how do you get past the working section of docklands at Seaforth?

    I think it was a nice idea but practically speaking you would need an Act of Parliament to create a public right of way.

    Having said that, being able to access all parts is bit of a planning mantra and rightly so. There's still a place for privacy (like, my front garden or even private gardens in a London square) but essentially 'gated' communities are difficult to justify.

    Problem is, they're very attractive to investors who might otherwise not want to live or put money into a 'dodgy' area. It would be interesting to know how that went in London's Docklands...

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    At Waterloo I walked right past the gate lodge, i'm not even sure anyone was in it. I went around to the dockside and there were even residents out enjoying a BBQ and some music. Perhaps it is usually out of bounds then, but so it is now anyway at Central docks and the Peel plans are certainly not for a gated community, quite the opposite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    ... the Peel plans are certainly not for a gated community, quite the opposite.
    It seems so. In fact in relation to the question of public accessibility (and Mersey Waterfront Regional Park), Peel have this to say in the application:

    "Mersey Waterfront Regional Park - the Mersey Waterfront Regional Park initiative has two strands; the City to Sea strand harnesses the attractiveness of waterfront locations to attract businesses and other investors; the Pride in Promenades strand focuses on enhancing quality and accessibility of public realm. The Liverpool Waters masterplan will form an important component of the Mersey Waterfront Regional Park by enhancing access and the quality of the environment and by attracting new uses and users to waterfront."

    However the East Waterloo Dock is not part of the application, so...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    However the East Waterloo Dock is not part of the application, so...
    Peel want it filled in - another water space will then be gone. The city fathers are fools for not drawing the line on dock filling. IF they ddi then no application would come in with docks filling as a part of it.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Peel want it filled in - another water space will then be gone. The city fathers are fools for not drawing the line on dock filling. IF they ddi then no application would come in with docks filling as a part of it.
    I'm all for preserving heritage, but what use is too many docks and no boats/ships to use them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
    I'm all for preserving heritage, but what use is too many docks and no boats/ships to use them?
    Want a few docks for Havasu City?

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