Toxteth District

[AngelCake]

I don't see why houses can't be built on part of the site.
It was always part of the original plan.
In fact, houses have already been built, and it's precisely those tenants who are now saying "Not In My Back Yard".

It should be remembered that we only have Prince's, Sefton and Newsham Parks because the perimeters were sold for housing to raise the cash for the laying out of those parks.

I'm fed up with the build new houses obsession and that area has enough people living there. What about all the empty houses over Liverpool? Why can't thay be fixed up instead of being left for photographers to make a collection titled "urban decay"?

[Waterways]

I'm fed up with the build new houses obsession and that area has enough people living there. What about all the empty houses over Liverpool? Why can't thay be fixed up instead of being left for photographers to make a collection titled "urban decay"?

Some houses are not worth saving. They are also very expensive to heat having no insulation. People are forced into fuel poverty. Insulation standards on new houses is very high making new homes cheap to heat. cold damp old houses give rise to medical complaints.

The UK has the oldest housing stock in western Europe and the least insulated. Only houses of note should be saved, and only then being fully renovated to modern standards. Look here for some interesting facts on housing:

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/watercity/LandArticle.html

[AngelCake]

Some houses are not worth saving. They are also very expensive to heat having no insulation. People are forced into fuel poverty. Insulation standards on new houses is very high making new homes cheap to heat. cold damp old houses give rise to medical complaints.

The UK has the oldest housing stock in western Europe and the least insulated. Only houses of note should be saved, and only then being fully renovated to modern standards. Look here for some interesting facts on housing:

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/watercity/LandArticle.html

I know the problem with old,damp houses but some of your posts sound like you don't wont Lodge lane to even exist. What about people who want to stay in their homes?Not everyone is like you or me-some people will stay in their chosen area no matter what. You must hate Laurence Westgaph's campaign to save Lodge lane

[Waterways]

I'd like to know where you live now (apologies if i'm being too nosy) and what do you think should happen to Lodge lane and Toxteth ?

I live in Buckinghamshire and London and visit Liverpool a lot. That may change soon.

Lodge Lane? It look awful indeed. You can't displace a whole group of people living there although the council can smarten the place up. Toxteth is too huge to say it should be like this and that.

The south end docks should be built on properly and the Toxteth and Harrington Docks excavated and the surrounds given over the residential property. Then work back into the hinterland. The refusal of the Brunswick Quay Tower was a major Council screw up.

The Dingle rail station should be brought back into commission (it is still there underground) and made a part of Merseyrail. Ideally the Dingle tunnel should be extended to Lodge Lane and an underground station built there - as originally intended when the Overhead Railway was built. Or extend from Edge Hill into Lodge Lane. Or better still link the Dingle tunnel with Edge Hill and a few stations along the new tunnel. Lodge Lane road could be cut and covered and have a tunnel just under the road. The transport infrastructure will be a catalyst for regeneration and attract private investors. Then Park Rd and Lodge Lane will become dense vibrant centres as is the case in London.

The Wapping rail tunnel from Edge Hill to Queens Dock could also be brought back into commission and have new stations cut into it. Around Bedford St would be a good place for one as it will also regenerate that area and create another vibrant centre.

Look at what the Jubilee Line extension did to areas it ran through in London. It needs public money to kick start it, however taxes could be levied on property that gains in value because of the new rail stations. London regretted not putting a tax on homes that have value increases around the new stations - some by 100%. It would have paid for the new tunnel and stations. Some people made a lot of money through no effort from themselves, from selling houses because of public money investment

[AngelCake]

I live in Buckinghamshire and London and visit Liverpool a lot. That may change soon.

Lodge Lane? It look awful indeed. You can't displace a whole group of people living there although the council can smarten the place up. Toxteth is too huge to say it should be like this and that.

The south end docks should be built on properly and the Toxteth and Harrington Docks excavated and the surrounds given over the residential property. Then work back into the hinterland. The refusal of the Brunswick Quay Tower was a major Council screw up.

The Dingle rail station should be brought back into commission (it is still there underground) and made a part of Merseyrail. Ideally the Dingle tunnel should be extended to Lodge Lane and an underground station built there - as originally intended when the Overhead Railway was built. Or extend from Edge Hill into Lodge Lane. Or better still link the Dingle tunnel with Edge Hill and a few stations along the new tunnel. Lodge Lane road could be cut and covered and have a tunnel just under the road. The transport infrastructure will be a catalyst for regeneration and attract private investors. Then Park Rd and Lodge Lane will become dense vibrant centres as is the case in London.

The Wapping rail tunnel from Edge Hill to Queens Dock could also be brought back into commission and have new stations cut into it. Around Bedford St would be a good place for one as it will also regenerate that area and create another vibrant centre.

Look at what the Jubilee Line extension did to areas it ran through in London. It needs public money to kick start it, however taxes could be levied on property that gains in value because of the new rail stations. London regretted not putting a tax on homes that have value increases around the new stations - some by 100%. It would have paid for the new tunnel and stations. Some people made a lot of money through no effort from themselves, from selling houses because of public money investment

London is different to Liverpool and you forget how many people live in London and use the tube.Liverpool doesn't have enough rail users to justify ripping a whole ancient road apart and what about people who don't need trains? A student would be better off on a bus that would drop them off outside rather than a walk from Edge Hill. Bedford street with a tunnel or rail station?! Ruin a conservation area for no reason? Do you know the amount of money that would be wasted on such a project? And the amount of beautiful buildings lost forever?Madness

[Waterways]

London is different to Liverpool and you forget how many people live in London and use the tube.Liverpool doesn't have enough rail users to justify ripping a whole ancient road apart and what about people who don't need trains? A student would be better off on a bus that would drop them off outside rather than a walk from Edge Hill. Bedford street with a tunnel or rail station?! Ruin a conservation area for no reason? Do you know the amount of money that would be wasted on such a project? And the amount of beautiful buildings lost forever?Madness

You don't get the point(s) or understand some of it. Underground rail stations attract regeneration - they can be easily put right into established centres. A tunnel runs right now (the Wapping Tunnel) under Bedford St and only a new underground station need be cut into the tunnel. The Dingle Tunnel, from Herculaneum Dock, can be linked to Edge Hill and mainly run along Ullyet Rd, Sefton Pk Rd, Lodge lane and Tunnel Rd. All by mainly digging out the road and backfilling (cut and cover) - how most of the Paris Metro was built and the section along Marylebone Rd in London.

This new tunnel would create a city centre rail ring loop, from the Central to Dingle, to Edge Hill, down the Waterloo Tunnel, where stations can be cut, to Waterloo Dock and along the Northern Line back to the centre. Like the Circle lines line in London and Glasgow. The new station would attract regeneration and beef up the centre. Imagine a 40 floor block over Dingle Station? Or one over a Lodge Lane station? Or one over a new station at Byrom St.

[Ben]

The Dingle rail station should be brought back into commission (it is still there underground) and made a part of Merseyrail. Ideally the Dingle tunnel should be extended to Lodge Lane and an underground station built there - as originally intended when the Overhead Railway was built. Or extend from Edge Hill into Lodge Lane. Or better still link the Dingle tunnel with Edge Hill and a few stations along the new tunnel. Lodge Lane road could be cut and covered and have a tunnel just under the road. The transport infrastructure will be a catalyst for regeneration and attract private investors. Then Park Rd and Lodge Lane will become dense vibrant centres as is the case in London.

I do like the idea of that.
I'm not sure whether it's in any way likely to happen - partly due to the large sums of money that appear to be required, and bearing in mind the time it takes for the go ahead on more commercially important rail improvements in Liverpool.

Look at what the Jubilee Line extension did to areas it ran through in London.

Didn't it take a while to get the Jubilee line to get installed (?) .... and bearing in mind this was to serve London's Docklands/Canary Wharf etc - it's a struggle for me to believe that the situation up here is analogous.
Merseytravel (or whoever) I think will struggle cost justifying new stations linking Lodge Lane to the network anytime soon.....

Still, as I said ... it would be nice.

[AngelCake]

You don't get the point(s) or understand some of it. Underground rail stations attract regeneration - they can be easily put right into established centres. A tunnel runs right now (the Wapping Tunnel) under Bedford St and only a new underground station need be cut into the tunnel. The Dingle Tunnel, from Herculaneum Dock, can be linked to Edge Hill and mainly run along Ullyet Rd, Sefton Pk Rd, Lodge lane and Tunnel Rd. All by mainly digging out the road and backfilling (cut and cover) - how most of the Paris Metro was built and the section along Marylebone Rd in London.

This new tunnel would create a city centre rail ring loop, from the Central to Dingle, to Edge Hill, down the Waterloo Tunnel, where stations can be cut, to Waterloo Dock and along the Northern Line back to the centre. Like the Circle lines line in London and Glasgow. The new station would attract regeneration and beef up the centre. Imagine a 40 floor block over Dingle Station? Or one over a Lodge Lane station? Or one over a new station at Byrom St.

It's a silly idea.I was talking about it with someone and they pointed out even more flaws in your idea. I know your heart is in the right place and you probably feel disgusted when you think of how bad Lodge lane is at the moment but there are better ways of regenerating Toxteth. The new development "Catherine Mews"(starting price £229,950) is in Toxteth but I doubt they use the T word in their brochure.It still has negative connotations and always will at this rate

[Waterways]

I still think you don't get it. Since when has an underground system been a silly idea? A city centre underground rail loop is created with underground stations in major districts, which will regenerate them.

Fast, comfortable and frequent transportation infrastructure is the key - underground trains - the city has disused underground tunnels that need re-using and needs more. Underground systems serve all the major cities of the world well. They penetrate right into the centre of districts.

I read once of a suggestion I liked to divert the Garston line as it passes through Otterspool, through the park under ground and down Aigburth Rd under the road. At the top of Aigburth Rd a branch into the Dingle underground stn, along the Dingle tunnel and out over the Herculaneum Dock onto the line again. The other branch at the top of Aigburth Rd would go along Ullyet Rd, Sefton Pk Rd, Lodge Lane, Tunnel Rd and into Edge Hill. Most of it would be cheap cut and cover along the roads, with little boring of tunnels.

Underground stations would be at: Aigburth Vale, Lark Lane, Sefton Pk Rd, the existing station at Dingle, Lodge Lane and Tunnel Rd (maybe). St Michaels Stn would be done away with - it is out on limb anyway. It would serve 4 major districts, right into the heart of them and no rail lines to be seen. It would also form a part of a city centre loop, which I explained previously using the Waterloo tunnel from Edge Hill to Waterloo Dock.

[AngelCake]

I still think you don't get it. Since when has an underground system been a silly idea? A city centre underground rail loop is created with underground stations in major districts, which will regenerate them.

Fast, comfortable and frequent transportation infrastructure is the key - underground trains - the city has disused underground tunnels that need re-using and needs more. Underground systems serve all the major cities of the world well. They penetrate right into the centre of districts.

I read once of a suggestion I liked to divert the Garston line as it passes through Otterspool, through the park under ground and down Aigburth Rd under the road. At the top of Aigburth Rd a branch into the Dingle underground stn, along the Dingle tunnel and out over the Herculaneum Dock onto the line again. The other branch at the top of Aigburth Rd would go along Ullyet Rd, Sefton Pk Rd, Lodge Lane, Tunnel Rd and into Edge Hill. Most of it would be cheap cut and cover along the roads, with little boring of tunnels.

Underground stations would be at: Aigburth Vale, Lark Lane, Sefton Pk Rd, the existing station at Dingle, Lodge Lane and Tunnel Rd (maybe). St Michaels Stn would be done away with - it is out on limb anyway. It would serve 4 major districts, right into the heart of them and no rail lines to be seen. It would also form a part of a city centre loop, which I explained previously using the Waterloo tunnel from Edge Hill to Waterloo Dock.

I understand the point you are making but you don't understand the difference between London and Liverpool. No one seems to know the exact figures but about 500,000 people live in Liverpool.London has so many boroughs and commuters that a train/tube system is needed. It wouldn't be Economically Sustainable in Liverpool. That is my point

[AngelCake]

Anyone have any thoughts about the proposal to build a Wetherspoons on the site of the old Kwik Save? (top of Smithdown Rd)

The jury is out a little for me - whilst I would never encourage that particular chain of pubs - I can't see another supermarket coping there (what with the proximity to the ASDA/ALDI etc), and the building itself is god awful ......
I thought Wetherspoons took nice buildings and ruined them .... I can't see how they could manage to do anything but improve that particular site...

I don't know what type of place a Wetherspoons is but think the last thing that part of Smithdown Road needs is a pub. A cinema would be much better! I'm always being told about an old cinema that used to be in upper parliament street Think it was called the Rialto Cinema

[Waterways]

I understand the point you are making but you don't understand the difference between London and Liverpool.

I understand the difference very well having lived in both.

No one seems to know the exact figures but about 500,000 people live in Liverpool. London has so many boroughs and commuters that a train/tube system is needed. It wouldn't be Economically Sustainable in Liverpool. That is my point

You clearly do not understand. The aim is to regenerate the city of Liverpool and get its population back. Make it dense again. Providing top class transport infrastructure is one of the major keys to regeneration.

It is best to spend public money on schemes that will promote regeneration. Otherwise it will be another round of public money to tart up an area which will decline again and more money to do it again and the circle continues. Money wasted.

Public money needs to be spent once and only once on meaningful projects and the private sector then makes it sustainable, create wealth and attract people back again.

[shytalk]

I don't know what type of place a Wetherspoons is but think the last thing that part of Smithdown Road needs is a pub. A cinema would be much better! I'm always being told about an old cinema that used to be in upper parliament street Think it was called the Rialto Cinema

That site on the corner of Smithdown and Yanwath St. used to be a cinema. The Picture Playhouse it was called. The Rialto was a cinema and a ballroom that was at the corner of Berkley St. and Upper Parliament St. It later was used as a used furniture warehouse by Swainbanks and was burned out in the riots.

[AngelCake]

I understand the difference very well having lived in both.



You clearly do not understand. The aim is to regenerate the city of Liverpool and get its population back. Make it dense again. Providing top class transport infrastructure is one of the major keys to regeneration.

It is best to spend public money on schemes that will promote regeneration. Otherwise it will be another round of public money to tart up an area which will decline again and more money to do it again and the circle continues. Money wasted.

Public money needs to be spent once and only once on meaningful projects and the private sector then makes it sustainable, create wealth and attract people back again.

If you think recommisioning rail tunnels would attract enough people and jobs to justify the afore mentioned plans to Liverpool-fine.Send a proposal to Liverpool council.They love wasting money,ruining beautiful architecture and selling off prime land for a pittance. Lets agree to disagree because we are going around in circles

[AngelCake]

That site on the corner of Smithdown and Yanwath St. used to be a cinema. The Picture Playhouse it was called. The Rialto was a cinema and a ballroom that was at the corner of Berkley St. and Upper Parliament St. It later was used as a used furniture warehouse by Swainbanks and was burned out in the riots.

Thank you for that info! Would love to see some pictures of The Rialto. The riots ruined Toxteth in the long run, or people's attitude towards Toxteth and its residents