Toxteth District

[PhilipG]

Why did they have to cover up the "Sefton Park Mews" part of this building?
I

saw Kev's earlier picture and was pleased to see it had all been cleaned up.
Here's 2 "snaps" I took in 1987 (out-of-focus, unfortunately).
For those

that don't know, "Maguire's Livery Stables" is the Fern Grove entrance to the same building.

BTW, toxteth.net is an excellent site, and does have

the original boundary of Toxteth Park correct.
L8 and all the other numbers are only 20th Century postal districts.

[MissInformed]

great

pics

where exactly is sefton park mews?

[PhilipG]

great pics

where exactly is sefton park mews?

On Lodge Lane, near to Fern Grove.

[ChrisGeorge]

Totally and utterly wrong. See:
http://www.toxteth.net

Paul mapped out the boundaries of Toxteth from the ancient maps - he walked it. His map shows the complete and correct boundary of Toxteth. He corrected mistakes in the boundary too. Yes, and parts of "Mossley Hill" are in Toxteth.

I have been reading this conversation. Technically of course, Waterways, you are correct and historically those areas are part of the original Royal hunting preserve of Toxteth Park as set up in the reign of King John. But areas change with time and usage, and I don't think you can view Penny Lane or Wavertree as being still part of Toxteth now. Similarly, Liverpool and much of Lancashire as far as Wigan and Winwick was part of West Derby Hundred as described in the Domesday Book, but you wouldn't say Liverpool or Wigan are part of West Derby now.

Chris

[Waterways]

I have been reading this conversation. Technically of course, Waterways, you are correct and historically those areas are part of the original Royal hunting preserve of Toxteth Park as set up in the reign of King John. But areas change with time and usage, and I don't think you can view Penny Lane or Wavertree as being still part of Toxteth now. Similarly, Liverpool and much of Lancashire as far as Wigan and Winwick was part of West Derby Hundred as described in the Domesday Book, but you wouldn't say Liverpool or Wigan are part of West Derby now.

Chris

The last time I took notice a big sign on Penny Lane said Toxteth and one on Aigburth Vale too. The old boundaries of the park still stand today. Those who live in Toxteth and deny it, well should get out.

[marky]

This stone post and sign are on Ullet Road (near the top gate entrance to Sefton park). The metal sign is a bit corroded but I think it reads:

TOWNSHIP
OF
TOXTETH PARK
ERECTED
BY THE
HEALTH COMMITTEE
1865

Has it been established what the sign refers to? Certainly not the stone post.
I have seen the phrase 'erected by the health committee' before, on the ramp at Sefton St. but I thought that plaque referred to the 'plumbing'. That plaque has a date of only one year later.
Is the stone pillar from one of the large houses built around the parks' perimeter?

[taffy]

This stone post and sign are on Ullet Road (near the top gate entrance to Sefton park). The metal sign is a bit corroded but I think it reads:

TOWNSHIP
OF
TOXTETH PARK
ERECTED
BY THE
HEALTH COMMITTEE
1865

Has it been established what the sign refers to? Certainly not the stone post.
I have seen the phrase 'erected by the health committee' before, on the ramp at Sefton St. but I thought that plaque referred to the 'plumbing'. That plaque has a date of only one year later.
Is the stone pillar from one of the large houses built around the parks' perimeter?

Well spotted Marky. The Health Committee are probably the managment committee of Toxteth Park Urban Sanitary District. This was a unit of local government that preceeded the Urban District Councils

[PhilipG]

There was another one - in excellent condition - at the bottom of Dingle Lane.
Freddy O'Connor made the mistake of saying it was when the houses were built, which was definitely wrong because they were built in the late 1920s.
It's gone now - hope it's in safe keeping.
Here's my piece about the house (called Dingle Vale) which was on the site when the sign was first fixed.
I thought it had something to do with the sewers, but I can't prove it.
http://www.toxteth.net/places/liverp...gle%20vale.htm

[marky]

I thought the plaque was either to do with the water supply or the drains. As you'll know efforts were made to improve both for health reasons.
I did wonder if there were any water fonts nearby as I know there were a couple of metal pillar fonts in the parks (I used both years ago). Another reason I thought of the water supply was because most of the fonts around (inc. obelisk fonts) have dates around the same period.

It could very well be that the structures 'erected by the health committee' refer to the drains because the Sefton Street ramp contains dockers toilets (aswell as a horses drinking trough). I'll see if I can slip my camera through the gates and get some pics one day.

[Max]

Toxteth.net says St Banabas Is part of Toxteth but you get Taffy saying It's Wavertree!

Do these boundaries on Toxteth.net only apply to when It was the ancient park? It says half my street Is Toxteth( I live on the Wavertree end).

[marie]

Maybe it´s wrong, but people saids me that Toxteth, Kensington and Tuebrook, are very dangerous and bad districs. It´s true? Where are others bads sides in Liverpool?
I´m with surprise face coz I walk alone in Toxteth and I´m not feeling the dangerous...
Thanks!!!!

[Jericho]

I'm surprised that anyone outside Liverpool knows about Tuebrook! Are you for real? My advice is trust your own experience. Poor areas of any city can be unsafe if you don't keep your wits about you.

[Jericho]

One of the main errors that some historians make is where they over-extrapolate from a source. So a sign/map/church board with the term Toxteth Park on it is heralded as prooving that such a place meaningfully existed or even continues to exist. I don't doubt that Toxteth Park existed as at least a topographical reality in the distant past and that as the city extended its boundaries at the beginning of the last century there may have been maps that showed the location of Toxteth Park and one or two civic or ecclesiastical organisations might have used this terms to denote location but it never amounted to anything durable or meaningful to the actual people who eventually lived in the area that was once part of Toxteth Park in King John's hunting days (modern day L17 in the main).

People on this thread have drawn attention to how churches have used the term Toxteth Park to describe where they are situated but this is far from universal practice. For example, St Michaels (CofE) half way between Dingle Lane and Jericho Lane doesn't use this term nor does St Charles (RC) just over half way between Dingle Lane and Aigburth Vale. No one who lives in this area would ever describe themselves as living in Toxteth or Toxteth Park. This is not because of some form of misplaced snobbery but because the identification since the beginning of the last century has been with L17 the postcode. People say that they are from L17.

Up until the so-called Toxteth Riots most people who lived in what is now termed Toxteth would have described themselves as living in L8. After the riots the term Toxteth has been increasingly used to describe that area in the local media, and by people from outside L8. Everyone I know from L8 describes themselves as coming from L8. I don't know many people who say that they are from Toxteth. However, a lot of agencies to help the local communities have been set up since the riots and these often use the term 'Toxteth'.

As for the term 'Dingle'. My understanding is that this once specified a very specific area around Dingle Lane and extended to the river. It initially contained a few fancy residences and more recently massive tenement blocks of the Gardens variety until they were knocked down. It now seems to extend right up the hill and over it. I don't know what's going on there but maybe districts like cities themselves can alter over time.

In other words you pay your money and you make your own choice! Maybe it's about multiple layers of association? LCC defines an area in one way, and then another. The church might employ another way, and local historians are sometimes caught between the two.

Maybe it's about how people define their local idenity? I noticed how the challenge to find Liverpool's oldest non aristrocratic family defined Liverpool in a particular way (not including Knowsley, Bootle, Kirkby etc.). Does that mean that these places are not part of a place called Liverpool? Or is it just about how you define the city? On this occasion they're not but on another occasion they might be. Maybe this principle of definitions depending on the terms of reference being used extends to Toxteth Park (and everywhere else hereabouts)?

[Jericho]

I'm looking at a Bartholomews contoured map of Merseyside (undated). It shows Toxteth Park and situates it where Greenbank Park is currently situated. Sefton Park is in more dominant lettering and situated where it still is. This map also shows Fulwood Park as a distinct area and Fulwood Road goes straight down to the shore line. It also shows a golf course between Fulwood Park and the river that I have never heard about! Tennis courts, yes, croquet lawns, yes. Golf course?! Most of Aigburth, Allerton and Garston appears yet to be built. Woolton and Childwall are clearly villages. The old Cheshire Line loop via West Derby is also shown as is the line from West Kirby to Parkgate and on to Hooton. All of Garston's train stations are shown. As well as Speke Hall there is a Tewit Hall in Speke, and Old Hall in Hale looks massive.

[marie]

I'm surprised that anyone outside Liverpool knows about Tuebrook! Are you for real? My advice is trust your own experience. Poor areas of any city can be unsafe if you don't keep your wits about you.

Jericho, I do not know it!!! Only I was asnwer to know!!! coz I moving to live to Liverpool, and I´m looking for a flats or rooms. I´m not sure it´s Toxteth, Tuebrook and Kensington Rd. are dangerous, coz only I know Liverpool than tourist.