Gardens, Tenements and Courts

[lindylou]

I thought all the contributers did well, putting a human face on what some people see as cold and souless places to have lived.

Yes, it's interesting to hear the ex residents and how they enjoyed their time there.

Coming from a quiet terraced street, the huge tenements looked somewhat foreboding to me. I can't explain why, maybe it was the sheer size of them or they just looked so different from a small terraced street. I would see them when going past on the bus and they did fascinate me - the strange shape of them, different colour brick, the different style of windows, the echo sounds, the landings. They were a very different way of living to me.
Also, seeing these places in the 1970s in the throes of their demise and not seeing them when they were first new when they were smart and innovative didn't help

Yes, hearing the residents stories definitely puts a human face to it.

[Ged]

One of Paul's reasons for making the Gardens of Stone film was dispel the preconceptions, myths even that these places were the breeding grounds of thugs and were forboding to strangers who didn't accept them into the fold. It's true that certain 'Squares' were competitive against each other but as seen in inter-square football match or bonfire night rivalry, it rarely descended into anything like the recent Crocky/Norris Green tribalism for instance.

Paul's work colleagues would express disdain and sometimes downright shock horror when he dare confirmed he hailed from Gerard Crescent (at the time containing the longest unbroken run of landings in Europe, if not the world) You see these people were from the leafy suburbs of Crosby and Thornton and the like. Their sole glimpses of Gerard Gardens were from the buses which passed alongside the main arch where they would catch sight of all these ruffians chasing after a ball - the sound of maybe 50 kids echoing all around.

In truth, I knew a few kids that visited our square from other places and they were accepted like anyone else from anywhere else. The residents there were no more angels, but no more scally than anywhere else and now through than film, some people are a little more enlightened. One ex resident when interviewed at the end tells of how his daughter was speaking to someone who remarked that her dad must have been a hard knock to live there. He said to her 'No girl, it wasn't like that at all'. Some of the most genuine people i've ever met still to this day lived in that place.

[lindylou]

Ged, you are right about the tribalism we have these days on some of our estates.

There has just been a lady talking on Radio Merseyside phone ins and she gave a good long talk about how good last nights programme was. She explained much the same about the history of the tenement and other council estates. Very interesting and makes you think again and view things in a different light.

Re council estates,we have seen how smart these places were when they started off ( and remained so for many years) but there has been much talk about how the places deteriorated and became run down.
The people in the film, and other people talking in general, say how proud the residents were of their new homes, how they took pride in their environment and everyone kept their own little patch clean and tidy. Even though it belonged to the council it was your home. That's why the estates stayed so nice for so long. They commented how that pride is a thing of the past and no longer do people care.

I wonder when and why this pride in maintaining your own little patch slipped away ? It seemed that once decay set in it just escalated.
We have all seen estates that were once nice places to live become almost like no go areas.

[GeorgePorgie]

I wonder when and why this pride in maintaining your own little patch slipped away ? It seemed that once decay set in it just escalated.
We have all seen estates that were once nice places to live become almost like no go areas.

Lindy this attitude of no pride,stems to the new generation of young mothers,some with husvand some not and with small children,they don't care a fig about outside the home and as I have said many a time that some people would be more suited to a pigsty rather than a house/flat.
Cantril Farm was great when it was first built,we moved up there when it was only half built and took another couple of years to complete its outcome.
Years later the riffraff got started to get moved into the estate and it went downhill due to house burgalrys and sheer vandalism.
The Knowsley trust took it over and tried their best to remodel it here and there by demolishing the small shopping precinct and surrounding high rise flats,they also demolished the maisonettes and rebuilt houses on the land,they done away with the subways that went under the main roads by filling them in.
At the end of the day its looks quite nice but the trouble is the estate still has many unsavoury characters and asbo's and drug dealers within the estate and like I told a committee member at one meeting you can spruce an area up and put decorations on the roof tops but you cannot change the way people think and act.

Glad I left the sh*thole 6 years ago because I've heard its worse now than it was when living there.

[Ged]

Yes, it's true that whilst it cannot be generalised that it is everyone, certainly the 1930s Norris Green and Walton (thinking Boot and Boswell estates) and the Speke one looked ideal when first built to how they are now. They've done Richard Kelly Drive up a good bit though.

[Kev]

Here's a link to Norris Green and problems that became evident many years ago.....

http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/sho...s-Green-Estate

[Lizzie1]

Re council estates,we have seen how smart these places were when they started off ( and remained so for many years) but there has been much talk about how the places deteriorated and became run down.
The people in the film, and other people talking in general, say how proud the residents were of their new homes, how they took pride in their environment and everyone kept their own little patch clean and tidy. Even though it belonged to the council it was your home. That's why the estates stayed so nice for so long. They commented how that pride is a thing of the past and no longer do people care.
I wonder when and why this pride in maintaining your own little patch slipped away ? It seemed that once decay set in it just escalated.
We have all seen estates that were once nice places to live become almost like no go areas.

These people were deserving of nice homes. As you say they took a pride in their neighbourhood. Too many people today seem to live a cocoon, they only see the insides of their homes and couldn't care less about outside, you only have to see the rubbish dumped in entries (sometimes just after the bin men have been!). I swear some don't even own a sweeping brush!

Some of these estates have been refurbished umpteen times, yet some tenants are still not happy. I know of some houses refurbished only last year, and are having to be fitted out again because the scally tenants have stripped them of anything of value. I feel sorry for the decent people having to live amongst these dead heads!

[lindylou]

You are so right Lizzie. Some people do live in a cocoon.
It's true what you say about houses being refurbished only to be trashed.
I remember saying a long time back here on the forum, about some council house gardens being an absolute tip. (not all I hasten to add - some people have their gardens lovely) .. but there are many who treat their gardens no better than patch of dirt full of rubbish. I don't think they deserve to have a garden when there are people living in houses with just a back yard that would give their right arm for a garden. Once again it comes down to pride and not whether you have the means to make a garden nice - anyone, even the poorest can be tidy and clean.

They were saying on last nights programme that one of the original rules for tenants was that they must upkeep their gardens. But I'm afraid that these days people are a law unto themselves and won't be told nothing.

[BlueJeans]

I wonder when and why this pride in maintaining your own little patch slipped away ? It seemed that once decay set in it just escalated.
We have all seen estates that were once nice places to live become almost like no go areas.

My nephew was on a gardening training scheme job in the early 90s, which involved tidying up gardens of Liverpool council estates. He would turn up at a house to be greeted by a young couple who had just got out of bed. He would then spend several hours mowing the grass, cutting down weeds and removing rubbish, whilst the occupants sat inside watching Sky TV all day. The only joy he got out of the job was working on the gardens of the elderly and infirm who wanted to tidy up their own gardens, but could not phyiscaly do it. Most of the people living in the flats would have loved to have a garden to care for, yet many of those who had one let it run to rack and ruin.

[GeorgePorgie]

My nephew was on a gardening training scheme job in the early 90s, which involved tidying up gardens of Liverpool council estates. He would turn up at a house to be greeted by a young couple who had just got out of bed. He would then spend several hours mowing the grass, cutting down weeds and removing rubbish, whilst the occupants sat inside watching Sky TV all day.

That does suprise me,as far as I know back then,you owned a garden with a council house you had to keep it clean and tidy.

p,s Sky TV did not appear in the uk till early Aug 1998.

[Spike]

I had Sky Tv in 1990

[GeorgePorgie]

I had Sky Tv in 1990

I dunno? wasn't that a test run sorta thing named British Satallite Broadcasting? owned by Rupert the bear? 4 channels I fink?

[Spike]

No I had Sky Sports and Sky Movies back then. You never had to pay for the Sports then either.

[BlueJeans]

The Premiership run by Sky was launched in 1993, according to Murdoch, football did not exist before that date.

[wsteve55]

Liverpool Corporation sent a delegation over to Eastern Europe on a mission to see their mass social housing.

Here is the Horseshoe in Britz, Berlin.



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And the Karl Marx Hof in Vienna.



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Interesting pic's Ged! Reminded me of the time I was in Amsterdam,and for something different,we jumped on a tram,and went to the terminus,which was several miles out of town! We were surprised,(after the "quaintness of the city,itself) to be confronted by numerous tower blocks,maisonettes,3 up flats,along the route,causing one lad to say"it's just like Kirby",which I suppose it was,to a point! The main difference was how clean and tidy it all looked,(though there was some "artistic" graffiti !) much like many Liverpool estates,when they were first built!
Seeing pic's of these estates on here,and elsewhere,can only make you wonder what went wrong,but I suppose it only takes a few,to ruin it for the majority!