Mackenzie's Tomb - Rodney Street

[fortinian]

Well what do you think folks ?
My next question would be "do people of Liverpool really care about Mc's Tomb " ?

Obviously not,looking at the state it's in,though

I'm not sure this is entirely fair. St Andrews Church is undergoing a massive re-development. Structually the building was in appalling shape and serious work has to be done on it, the site has been lagrely cleared of dangerous items underfoot ready for the heritage open days in September.

As for Mackenzie's tomb... it's in pretty good shape really. A bit overgrown but what gravestone over 100 years old isn't?

Also, what could the 'people of Liverpool' really do about the tomb? The land is now owned by the council, Mackenzies tomb is not only a landmark but a civil monument to a very important man. The council would not let it disappear.

We must remember that historically the people of Liverpool did bugger all when St Andrews needed a new roof... it was Edward Mackenzie, William's out-of-town brother who paid for the debt of the church in 1868.

[Ged]

I did reply to Zaps question on another forum that the church and grounds is undergoing restoration so no need to worry, it won't fall down.

[lindylou]

Well what do you think folks ?
My next question would be "do people of Liverpool really care about Mc's Tomb " ?

Well, certainly a lot of Liverpool people are fascinated by this tomb, but as Fortinian says, what can liverpool people do about it ? I would like to see it spruced up a bit, it definately does attract a lot of interest. The tomb is included in part of the Shiverpool tour.

[dazza]

I went past this Tomb yesterday and was disgusted by the state of the place.
What the hell is going on. Why has this been left like this ?
Surely something should be done about it!!

fortinian wrote:

"Pevesner, in his book on archetecture of Lancashire, when describing St Andrews Chruch, Rodney Street, mentions the tomb and says McKenzie died in 1851 and the tomb was built in 1868 - but is effectively a paraphrase of Picton."

I haven't read through the history of posts on this thread, but has anyone considered the 17 year old difference between him dying, and the creation of his tomb? Would seem unlikely to support the current myth of him sitting upright, or being above ground for that matter.

[ItsaZappathing]

Well, certainly a lot of Liverpool people are fascinated by this tomb, but as Fortinian says, what can liverpool people do about it ? I would like to see it spruced up a bit, it definately does attract a lot of interest. The tomb is included in part of the Shiverpool tour.

Instead of getting them very useless stupid Lambanana things everywhere we should of had more of the cities "important landmarks" repaired first.

[fortinian]

I haven't read through the history of posts on this thread, but has anyone considered the 17 year old difference between him dying, and the creation of his tomb? Would seem unlikely to support the current myth of him sitting upright, or being above ground for that matter.

Can you quote yourself? Is it bad manners?

It seems Mackenzie's soul does not lie above the ground in the pyramid. He was simply buried and the pyramid placed on top of him without his knowledge - or concent!
Either that or they had a rotting body sitting in the church yard for seventeen years!

[dazza]

Can you quote yourself? Is it bad manners?

Hi fortinian...not if what you're saying is right? Nothing wrong with a bit of self promotion. And thanks btw - I thought it might've been covered.
That's a long time to wait just to hold a winning hand? This week's local myth busting prize goes to you.

[Ged]

Whatever will Tom Slemen say?

[dazza]

Whatever will Tom Slemen say?

I don't know - I'll ask some of his friends...

[Ged]

[ChrisGeorge]

I haven't read through the history of posts on this thread, but has anyone considered the 17 year old difference between him dying, and the creation of his tomb? Would seem unlikely to support the current myth of him sitting upright, or being above ground for that matter.

Hello dazza

You make an excellent point. It would appear that the pyramid-style tomb was built when Edward Mackenzie, William's out-of-town brother, paid for the debt of the church in 1868. Thus, William's body must have been interred for 17 years in a run-of-the-mill grave before he was put under the new tomb. So it is highly unlikely that he could have been reburied sitting in a chair inside the tomb. So much for that story. . . .

C

[dazza]

Who said it wasn't true?

Only joking!!! [...had you all guessing for a split second though???]. Let me introduce Jeremy Benthan, (b.1748 - 1832), politician, philosopher, legal and social reformer preserved and displayed, as requested in his will, in a wooden cabinet called an "Auto-icon" at University College, London. At the 100th & 150th year anniversaries of the college it was wheeled in the meeting of the College Council, where it was listed as "present but not voting".

So William Mackenzie was in good company in the 19c. There were other eccentric last will and testament requests.

One of Frank Carlyle's youtube vid's said that William Mackenzie went as far as to make the request in his will, to be seated upright, with said winning hand. But with the 17 year old gap, between internment and the building of the monument, it seems less than likely that his wishes were carried out to the letter. More's the pity.

Best not open the monument, and keep the myth going for as long as we possibly can?

[fortinian]

Who said it wasn't true?
At the 100th & 150th year anniversaries of the college it was wheeled in the meeting of the College Council, where it was listed as "present but not voting".

Apparently he only votes when the vote is tied and then he always votes in favour of the motion. True utilitarianism, even in death.

One of Frank Carlyle's youtube vid's said that William Mackenzie went as far as to make the request in his will, to be seated upright, with said winning hand. But with the 17 year old gap, between internment and the building of the monument, it seems less than likely that his wishes were carried out to the letter. More's the pity.

Best not open the monument, and keep the myth going for as long as we possibly can?

I've tried to find a copy of his will but to no avail - Carlyle is a wonderful one for quoting his sources .

Keep the myth but make sure people like Mr Carlyle (who should know better) stop promoting it as historical fact.

It is interesting to note that I have never found any reference to this 'myth' until Slemen came on the scene.

John Reppion (a writer and poster on these forums) pointed out in his '800 Years of Haunted Liverpool' that there is a very famous story about a man buried in a pyramid called 'Mad Jack Fuller' but apparently that is untrue as well although the pyramid was built before he died and he was buried underneath it.

http://johnmadjackfuller.homestead.com/Pyramid.html

[SteveFaragher]

I was telling a freind about this myth of McKenzie and she quite rightly said it doesnt exist merely because skeletons dont exist, only in films and medical schools as once the connective tissue has disappeared so to does the skeleton so in reality all that would be left would be a pile of bones and a dissintegrated pack of cards and clothes....... er dust? not very spooky but true

[pablo42]

I was telling a freind about this myth of McKenzie and she quite rightly said it doesnt exist merely because skeletons dont exist, only in films and medical schools as once the connective tissue has disappeared so to does the skeleton so in reality all that would be left would be a pile of bones and a dissintegrated pack of cards and clothes....... er dust? not very spooky but true

True that Steve, most skeletons fall apart. I have seen some that stay together though, don't know the reason why. Never been one to mess with bones. Bad Joo Joo.