Mackenzie's Tomb - Rodney Street

[dazza]

I went past this Tomb yesterday and was disgusted by the state of the place.
What the hell is going on. Why has this been left like this ?
Surely something should be done about it!!

fortinian wrote:

"Pevesner, in his book on archetecture of Lancashire, when describing St Andrews Chruch, Rodney Street, mentions the tomb and says McKenzie died in 1851 and the tomb was built in 1868 - but is effectively a paraphrase of Picton."

I haven't read through the history of posts on this thread, but has anyone considered the 17 year old difference between him dying, and the creation of his tomb? Would seem unlikely to support the current myth of him sitting upright, or being above ground for that matter.

[ChrisGeorge]

I haven't read through the history of posts on this thread, but has anyone considered the 17 year old difference between him dying, and the creation of his tomb? Would seem unlikely to support the current myth of him sitting upright, or being above ground for that matter.

Hello dazza

You make an excellent point. It would appear that the pyramid-style tomb was built when Edward Mackenzie, William's out-of-town brother, paid for the debt of the church in 1868. Thus, William's body must have been interred for 17 years in a run-of-the-mill grave before he was put under the new tomb. So it is highly unlikely that he could have been reburied sitting in a chair inside the tomb. So much for that story. . . .

C

[dazza]

Who said it wasn't true?

Only joking!!! [...had you all guessing for a split second though???]. Let me introduce Jeremy Benthan, (b.1748 - 1832), politician, philosopher, legal and social reformer preserved and displayed, as requested in his will, in a wooden cabinet called an "Auto-icon" at University College, London. At the 100th & 150th year anniversaries of the college it was wheeled in the meeting of the College Council, where it was listed as "present but not voting".

So William Mackenzie was in good company in the 19c. There were other eccentric last will and testament requests.

One of Frank Carlyle's youtube vid's said that William Mackenzie went as far as to make the request in his will, to be seated upright, with said winning hand. But with the 17 year old gap, between internment and the building of the monument, it seems less than likely that his wishes were carried out to the letter. More's the pity.

Best not open the monument, and keep the myth going for as long as we possibly can?

[fortinian]

Who said it wasn't true?
At the 100th & 150th year anniversaries of the college it was wheeled in the meeting of the College Council, where it was listed as "present but not voting".

Apparently he only votes when the vote is tied and then he always votes in favour of the motion. True utilitarianism, even in death.

One of Frank Carlyle's youtube vid's said that William Mackenzie went as far as to make the request in his will, to be seated upright, with said winning hand. But with the 17 year old gap, between internment and the building of the monument, it seems less than likely that his wishes were carried out to the letter. More's the pity.

Best not open the monument, and keep the myth going for as long as we possibly can?

I've tried to find a copy of his will but to no avail - Carlyle is a wonderful one for quoting his sources .

Keep the myth but make sure people like Mr Carlyle (who should know better) stop promoting it as historical fact.

It is interesting to note that I have never found any reference to this 'myth' until Slemen came on the scene.

John Reppion (a writer and poster on these forums) pointed out in his '800 Years of Haunted Liverpool' that there is a very famous story about a man buried in a pyramid called 'Mad Jack Fuller' but apparently that is untrue as well although the pyramid was built before he died and he was buried underneath it.

http://johnmadjackfuller.homestead.com/Pyramid.html

[SteveFaragher]

I was telling a freind about this myth of McKenzie and she quite rightly said it doesnt exist merely because skeletons dont exist, only in films and medical schools as once the connective tissue has disappeared so to does the skeleton so in reality all that would be left would be a pile of bones and a dissintegrated pack of cards and clothes....... er dust? not very spooky but true

[pablo42]

I was telling a freind about this myth of McKenzie and she quite rightly said it doesnt exist merely because skeletons dont exist, only in films and medical schools as once the connective tissue has disappeared so to does the skeleton so in reality all that would be left would be a pile of bones and a dissintegrated pack of cards and clothes....... er dust? not very spooky but true

True that Steve, most skeletons fall apart. I have seen some that stay together though, don't know the reason why. Never been one to mess with bones. Bad Joo Joo.

[ChrisGeorge]

True that Steve, most skeletons fall apart. I have seen some that stay together though, don't know the reason why. Never been one to mess with bones. Bad Joo Joo.

There was the case of Miss Hickman, an early woman surgeon, whose body was found in Richmond Park, London, in 1903 after she had been missing for several months. It appears to have been a case of suicide, although a poster on JtR Forums argued that because her head was detached from her body, a serial killer must have done that. More likely her body just fell apart as it became skeletonized. There also appeared to be evidence that dogs or some other animals had disturbed the corpse.

Here's a pdf download about the case:

Susan Collinson, "The Case of the Missing Doctor," Sketches from the history of psychiatry (Women, suicide and insanity at the turn of the century), Psychiatric Bulletin 1990;14:83-86.

The article chronicles the case of Miss Sophia Frances Hickman, MD Bruxelles, LRCP, LRCS Edinburgh, a locum tenens at the Royal Free Hospital, Gray's Inn Road, reported missing in August 1903. As noted above, it looks as if it was a case of suicide, a hypodermic syringe being found near her body, and evidence introduced at the inquest that before her disappearance she had purchased 15 grains of sulphate of morphine. Her body was found to be "in repose" and there was no sign of sexual interference.

Chris

[Ged]

True that Steve, most skeletons fall apart. I have seen some that stay together though, don't know the reason why. Never been one to mess with bones. Bad Joo Joo.

Pablo. Bad news for you. That skeleton in Alan's room in Rising Damp is plastic

[dazza]

Pablo. Bad news for you. That skeleton in Alan's room in Rising Damp is plastic

This one is still intact, and doesn't suffer from rising damp.
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/1388610/4786730

[dazza]

I was telling a freind about this myth of McKenzie and she quite rightly said it doesnt exist merely because skeletons dont exist, only in films and medical schools as once the connective tissue has disappeared so to does the skeleton so in reality all that would be left would be a pile of bones and a dissintegrated pack of cards and clothes....... er dust? not very spooky but true

Another nail in the coffin for this myth. It's not looking good for ole Mackenzie?

[dazza]

Apparently he only votes when the vote is tied and then he always votes in favour of the motion. True utilitarianism, even in death.

Ha ha, only in Britain? IOW, he'd champion a cause, but would still remain in the closet.

I've tried to find a copy of his will but to no avail - Carlyle is a wonderful one for quoting his sources ..

That's one for Frank then - otherwise it gets filed in the unsubstantiated fact bin.

John Reppion (a writer and poster on these forums) pointed out in his '800 Years of Haunted Liverpool' that there is a very famous story about a man buried in a pyramid called 'Mad Jack Fuller' but apparently that is untrue as well although the pyramid was built before he died and he was buried underneath it.

Amazing - he went into the afterlife armed with... a 'full dress and top hat seated at a table set with a roast chicken and a bottle of wine'. I'm not saying this is wrong - it obviously worked for him, as a royal flush did for Mackenzie.



I've just read Dan Brown's The Lost Symbol, so forgive me for asking - but was William Mackenzie a mason?

[fortinian]

I've just read Dan Brown's The Lost Symbol, so forgive me for asking - but was William Mackenzie a mason?

I'm going to say probably. It is extremely likely he was a Mason as Masonic activity really took off during the Victorian era, most of the movers and shakers of the day where affiliated with a Lodge of somesort. Basically Freemasonay is and has always been a big old boys club, you scratch my back, wink wink, nudge nudge, know what I mean.

[petromax]

Who said it wasn't true?

Only joking!!! [...had you all guessing for a split second though???]. Let me introduce Jeremy Benthan, (b.1748 - 1832), politician, philosopher, legal and social reformer preserved and displayed, as requested in his will, in a wooden cabinet called an "Auto-icon" at University College, London...

As you're probably aware this is not him. His head fell off and was eventually taken away. His body rotted from the inside, so it's largely his clothes and a dummy head that remains.

So there's still a chance that Mackenzie's clothes are still playing cards in his tomb (after a 17 years wait...)

[fortinian]

So there's still a chance that Mackenzie's clothes are still playing cards in his tomb (after a 17 years wait...)

, I was about to post angrily saying 'no chance, he wasn't in the bloody pyramid in the first place'.... then I realised you were joking.

I'll get my coat.

[Cadfael]

One has to wonder whether the story does have some sort of truth in it. It is not possible that the body was stored away, fully clothed until the money was found to have this pyramid built on top so his last dying wish could be fulfilled? It's doubtful but there has to be a reason in the 17 year wait.

Whatever the truth, it's one of the most striking grave stones I've ever seen in Liverpool, and it beats the Walker grave at Childwall.