The Vines, Lime St-Tunnels

[Waterways]

My dear auld Ma used to work in the Pig & Whistle many years ago and I remember her telling me that the pub's cellar used to flood out at high tide.
Mind you being that close to the river it shouldn't be a surprise, but I got the impression the flooding served a 'purpose'.

On Chapel Street that would be the old drainage tunnels. They emptied directly into the river. I am not sure if sewage was put down them as well. Which I'm sure it was.

Sewage was emptied directly into the river until the Sandon Dock sewage plant was built in the 1980s

Many houses in Birkenhead had their cellars fill on high Spring tides.

[fortinian]

There are tunnels under the pub I live above (The Bears Paw in Edge Hill) although these are more than likely part of Williamsons, Ive actually seen the branch which goes off from the cellar, but its all filled in atm, Ive heard rumours though from a number of local sources, that the tunnels go right down to at least Lewis's, someone I know claims to have accessed them from a tomb in St Marys graveyard over the road, and came out near Lewis's, Liverpool was a MAJOR port so smuggling operations would have been huge. Ive been reading Haunted Liverpool tonight, and Tom Slemen makes reference to tunnels beneath Renshaw Street under Grand Central? Anyone any information on this?


Cheers,



Andrew

Smuggling never really happened in Liverpool during the 19th century. The Wirral with its many tidal inlets and relatively undeveloped hinterland was the ideal spot for smuggling from Liverpool bay. Smuggling was unlikely to use tunnels anyway, much easier for a small boat to run ashore at dusk deliver the cargo to a suitable inn (say Mother Red Cap's) and then scarper in the darkness of night. Another factor is discounting smugglers tunnels is that the Mersey coast is mainly sand-slacks, tunnels you would expect to be dug through cliff-faces not through half a mile of sandy beach.

The Liverpool side (around the city) was far too developed with too many keen customs men and pilot boats on the river. From the end of the Napoleonic Wars (1815) britain introduced a coastguard and blockademen who effectively cauterized smuggling in everywhere bar the most rural areas.

[kevin]

Yes, that is the Sefton Picturedrome.
The building is still there.
I'll put it in the "Some Liverpool Cinemas" thread tomorrow.

Is my memory playing tricks, or was there a workshop making rocking horses down the side of that building?

[Ged]

There are tunnels under the pub I live above (The Bears Paw in Edge Hill) although these are more than likely part of Williamsons, Ive actually seen the branch which goes off from the cellar, but its all filled in atm, Ive heard rumours though from a number of local sources, that the tunnels go right down to at least Lewis's, someone I know claims to have accessed them from a tomb in St Marys graveyard over the road, and came out near Lewis's, Liverpool was a MAJOR port so smuggling operations would have been huge. Ive been reading Haunted Liverpool tonight, and Tom Slemen makes reference to tunnels beneath Renshaw Street under Grand Central? Anyone any information on this?


Cheers,


Andrew

Renshaw St tunnels discussed here but sadly no proof or pics.

http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/sho...street+tunnels

[Doctor Frick]

I recently carried out a building survey in the cellar of the vines and can assure you that i saw no signs of tunnels or where they had been blocked up.

[Ged]

I think many have over zealous and colourful imaginations when it comes to tunnels going for miles and miles, smugglers, secret passages, hideaways etc. Most pubs will have a cellar, some with arched wine coolers etc but that's all they'll be.

[fortinian]

I think many have over zealous and colourful imaginations when it comes to tunnels going for miles and miles, smugglers, secret passages, hideaways etc. Most pubs will have a cellar, some with arched wine coolers etc but that's all they'll be.

I think you may be right Ged. People often forget just how difficult it is to tunnel and how often old cellars can be forgotten about - even when the buildings above them have been demolished they can still remain for years.

There is also the possibility in many victorian buildings of finding 'blind arches'. They may look like filled in passageways to the casual observer but most of the time they are just architectual features or a way of spreading weight over a larger area, especially if the ground underneath is not ideal for building.

Many victorian houses only have foundations a few feet deep and it would be vital to spread the load of the house as much as possible.

[Cadfael]

Take no notice of Slemen, he makes thing up. The Williamson's Tunnels' do go a long way. I doubt to Lewis'. There are vast caverns at Copperas Hill from the old copper mines - copperas give the game away. They have been sealed up. Williamson's may have broken into the old copper mine tunnels and caverns.

If they do go that far they could put a underground Merseyrail line down there with the odd station, and then at last the tunnels would be used for something useful.

Smuggling? That far from the port? Nah!

When we started off with the Tunnels group, we learnt lots about Williamson and his tunnelling around Edge Hill. One of the area's we also concentrated on was Wolstenholme Square and we found that his office was actually where the Cream nightclub is now. Around the back, you can still see a bricked up window and sandstone plinth - this used to be his 3 story building.

We asked Cream if they had come across any cellers and they had, but had poured concrete in them in parts for their needs, but what we did see was archways exactly like Paddington in Edge Hill.

I also have a newspaper clipping from the Echo in the 60's to say that upon doing excavation for the RC Cathedral, they stumbled upon sandstone arches and tunnels far underneath the workhouse.

Coupled with the fact that Charles Hand in 1926 toured the Paddington section and walked for 'over a mile' without finding a boundary, I would say that Williamson must have at one point, pick axe'd in to Liverpool from Edge Hill.

[fortinian]

We asked Cream if they had come across any cellers and they had, but had poured concrete in them in parts for their needs, but what we did see was archways exactly like Paddington in Edge Hill.

Could they have looked the same because they were both brick arched cellars, Cad?

Coupled with the fact that Charles Hand in 1926 toured the Paddington section and walked for 'over a mile' without finding a boundary, I would say that Williamson must have at one point, pick axe'd in to Liverpool from Edge Hill.[/QUOTE]

I cannot find any reference to Charles Hand saying he walked for over a mile. In his second article about Williamson for the Transactions of the Historic Society of Lancashire and Cheshire (4th November 1926) he does say 'We failed to discover a boundry' (p 90) but makes no reference to any distances.

I understand there was an accompanying newspaper article of this particular exploration but I do not have a copy of it or a reference of where to find it. Perhaps it is in this where he says he has walked for over a mile.

[Cadfael]

From what we saw, they were exactly the same as the Paddington brickwork. I've seen similar brickwork at the Albert Dock and indeed in the basement at Woodchester Mansion but these were a carbon copy.

In relation to Charles Hand:

"a 1925 newspaper article was discovered, describing the LCHS visit and illustrating it with two photographs. The article pinpointed the property above as No. 126 Paddington and reported that the historians "went for nearly a mile before giving up their search for a boundary".

A copy of which will be going in to the official book. (it was from the Liverpool Post).

Could they have looked the same because they were both brick arched cellars, Cad?

Coupled with the fact that Charles Hand in 1926 toured the Paddington section and walked for 'over a mile' without finding a boundary, I would say that Williamson must have at one point, pick axe'd in to Liverpool from Edge Hill.

I cannot find any reference to Charles Hand saying he walked for over a mile. In his second article about Williamson for the Transactions of the Historic Society of Lancashire and Cheshire (4th November 1926) he does say 'We failed to discover a boundry' (p 90) but makes no reference to any distances.

I understand there was an accompanying newspaper article of this particular exploration but I do not have a copy of it or a reference of where to find it. Perhaps it is in this where he says he has walked for over a mile.[/QUOTE]

[ChrisGeorge]

Just a quick thought, Cadfael. I may be wrong, but I should think there probably was not a set "boundary" for Williamson's tunnels. If the tunnels were begun, as I believe has been said to have been the case, to give out-of-work Liverpudlians work during around the Napoleonic period, the workers probably just kept digging to wherever it led them. That is, the tunnels had no set purpose or design but just were begun by an eccentric but humane local businessman for the sake of being what they were, a kind of folly, if you wish. Please correct me if I am under a misapprehension about Williamson's digging project. I do agree with the statement that it would seem very unlikely that the tunnels went as far as the Vines on Lime Street or to Lewis's in Renshaw Street.

Chris

[Cadfael]

What you have to remember is that when Williamson came along, he was adding to what was already there. We have thoughts that the quarry's that were there were well before Williamson and he came along and used them for what he wanted.

The problem being is that when anything is uncovered these days, they are assumed to be Williamson's Tunnels. It is very fair to say that most of Edge Hill IS littered with Williamson's Tunnels, but apart from Hand in 1926, no one has ever actually ventured out towards town. Given the fact that Edge Hill is one of the high points of Liverpool, you'd have to dig down a fair level (i.e. the railway cutting or below) to be on par with the level of town - I couldn't imagine him building one large slope towards town, but I do believe that in his era, there was far less above ground and he really could tunnel where he wanted.

However, it is fair to say that he may well have used other tunnels around the area and added them to his own. One area which I am very interested in is the demolition of the Royal Hospital as it was rumoured that tunnels were found in the building of this. It would give some credible source if they were Williamson Tunnels to extend the boundary to what we see as being the rectangle piece of land from Irvine Street/Highgate Street/Grinfield Street/Smithdown Lane.

There are enough tunnels littered in that area that we've not stumbled upon - I'm just happy to find those

Just a quick thought, Cadfael. I may be wrong, but I should think there probably was not a set "boundary" for Williamson's tunnels. If the tunnels were begun, as I believe has been said to have been the case, to give out-of-work Liverpudlians work during around the Napoleonic period, the workers probably just kept digging to wherever it led them. That is, the tunnels had no set purpose or design but just were begun by an eccentric but humane local businessman for the sake of being what they were, a kind of folly, if you wish. Please correct me if I am under a misapprehension about Williamson's digging project. I do agree with the statement that it would seem very unlikely that the tunnels went as far as the Vines on Lime Street or to Lewis's in Renshaw Street.

Chris

[petromax]

I guess the Williamson tunnels were limited at most to the extent of rock outcrop in the area (obviously because they would not be self supporting otherwise). I understand that there are also tunnels under the Anglical Cathedral within the rock outcrop there.

I know there is an outcrop not far from the Pig and Whistle around about Martins Bank in Water Street (and the basement would flood there if it were not for the concrete walls) which would possibly run down Castle Street to the Castle (Victoria's monument). It would be very diffciult to sustain a tunnel elsewhere ie. through the weathered rock and silt going down to the docks and river.

In theory there ought to be a continuous rock outcrop from the Anglican Cathedral around to Everton brow taking in Edge Hill (and the Williamson Tunnels) plus a spur on the other side of the pool feeder river running towards the Castle from the foot of Everton Brow - but it's all guess work unless someone could source a geological map and overlay it with the 'theories'?

I had also heard that there were tours (???) of below ground 'caves' running along Strand/ Strand Street which would tie in with the theory that they are actually shoreline erosions from below of the land-fill built up to make the docks ie., the land fill has been eaten away from below by the tide leaving a 'crust' on top!

[wsteve55]

While not being particularly knowledgable about Williamsons works,I have read that, often,he would utilise pre-existing natural caverns,and tunnels,sandstone not being a "hard" rock! This has probably helped confuse routes,and distances involved,along with changes in various ground levels,as the city developed,such as at Mount pleasant!

[ItsaZappathing]

I guess the Williamson tunnels were limited at most to the extent of rock outcrop in the area (obviously because they would not be self supporting otherwise). I understand that there are also tunnels under the Anglical Cathedral within the rock outcrop there.

I know there is an outcrop not far from the Pig and Whistle around about Martins Bank in Water Street (and the basement would flood there if it were not for the concrete walls) which would possibly run down Castle Street to the Castle (Victoria's monument). It would be very diffciult to sustain a tunnel elsewhere ie. through the weathered rock and silt going down to the docks and river.

In theory there ought to be a continuous rock outcrop from the Anglican Cathedral around to Everton brow taking in Edge Hill (and the Williamson Tunnels) plus a spur on the other side of the pool feeder river running towards the Castle from the foot of Everton Brow - but it's all guess work unless someone could source a geological map and overlay it with the 'theories'?

I had also heard that there were tours (???) of below ground 'caves' running along Strand/ Strand Street which would tie in with the theory that they are actually shoreline erosions from below of the land-fill built up to make the docks ie., the land fill has been eaten away from below by the tide leaving a 'crust' on top!

Very Interesting