Warships and Ships at war

[captain kong]

HMS Formidable
1) 4 May 1945: Struck by a Zero carrying one 250 kg bomb which caused a 2 foot square hole and a 24 x 20 foot depression in the armored flight deck. Some structural damage was inflicted and three fragments penetrated the hanger deck with one going through a center boiler and into the double bottom. Speed was reduced to 18 knots and she was out of action for five hours. This attack killed eight men, wounded 51 and destroyed eleven aircraft.*
2) 9 May 1945: Kamikaze strike into the after deck park killed one and wounded eight. Deck depressed 4.5 inches with a supporting beam distorted by 3 inches. Six Corsairs and one Avenger were destroyed on deck, and a blown out rivet allowed burning fuel to penetrate into the hanger, which together with the sprinkler system damaged a further eight Corsairs and three Avengers. Out of action for 25 minutes. Amazing how fast they recovered from that attack. 25 minutes.

[pablo42]

Twenty five minutes, jeez, takes longer to make a brew.

[Waterways]

HMS Formidable

Amazing how fast they recovered from that attack. 25 minutes.

The US carriers had wooden flight decks and would have been out for months.

US and Japanese carriers had wood because of repairability. If they had an accident, or crash, they just pulled up the damaged or burnt wood and replaced it, apparently, with enough men, something they had plenty of, they could replace large areas quickly.

However if the damage penetrated through the flight deck then the consequences to the hanger space underneath would be severe and then it was a dockyard job for repairs. Witness the frequency of time spent in dock by USN carriers after kamikaze hits. RN carriers took less damage from comparable hits and could resume operations sooner.

The British crews mainly mixed quick drying concrete to flatten out dents in the flight deck after kamikaze attacks.

A USN liaison officer on HMS Formidable off Okinawa was reported as saying "When a kamikaze hits a US carrier, it's six months repair in Pearl. In a Limey carrier, it's 'sweepers, man your brooms'.

[pablo42]

So they repaired the decks with concrete. Was that special concrete or just ordinary stuff.

[Waterways]

So they repaired the decks with concrete. Was that special concrete or just ordinary stuff.

It was developed for that application and was quick drying. The US had wooden decks which were also for topside lightness - a compromise. However they all adopted the UKs full armoured hangars and flight decks after WW2. I think the US Essex class were armoured decks towards the end of WW2.

The US view was that if you had enough planes you could protect the carrier, so no need for heavy armour - it never worked. Their carriers were large and designed to operate in the vast Pacific, so their planes were forward attack planes. US carriers were supplied from Atolls. UK carriers were smaller and more armoured as they expected to operate near to shore within range of land bases enemy planes. They also had limited range as the expected at sea time was 10 days, as they would be always be near to a friendly port having such a vast empire. British carriers were not for attack, rather more support than anything else, until that doctrine was changed during WW2.

The problem with armoured hangars was that it reduced aircraft capacity - hence larger, massive, expensive carriers post-war. The British Far East fleet carriers in 1945 ended up with 81 planes by storing them on decks and some overhanging the sea.

The British perfected the carrier and developed just about everything in carrier systems in its evolution:

• the first purpose built carrier
• armoured flight decks
• angled flight decks,
• the ski-jump deck,
• the steam catapult
• practical vertical take-off jet aircraft - the Harrier.
• mirror landing systems
• the first through decks
• hurricane bows.

..and a few more I haven't thought of.

[pablo42]

Aren't the Brits building a carrier as we speak.

[Waterways]

Aren't the Brits building a carrier as we speak.

Yep. It was to be three of the Queen Elizabeth class. Dropped to two and maybe just one. It is the size of the US Independence class. The biggest carriers the UK would have built. Part of it is being made at Birkenhead.

[pablo42]

Yep. It was to be three of the Queen Elizabeth class. Dropped to two and maybe just one. It is the size of a the US Independence class. The biggest carriers the UK would have built. Part of it is being made at Birkenhead.

WOW! Fantastic. Gotta be heavy in protection though. Gonna be costly with support and goalkeeper protection ships.

[kevin]

Though in awe of warships and fully appreciate their necessity, as an ex-seaman my awe is tempered by my awareness that part of their role was to send other ships to the sea bed, with the resultant loss of life of other sailors.

But I guess that is true of all weapons of war - this just affects me differently because it's sailors involved. Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive, having recently spoken to the widow of a sailor who lost his life on a convoy to Murmansk.

[pablo42]

Though in awe of warships and fully appreciate their necessity, as an ex-seaman my awe is tempered by my awareness that part of their role was to send other ships to the sea bed, with the resultant loss of life of other sailors.

But I guess that is true of all weapons of war - this just affects me differently because it's sailors involved. Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive, having recently spoken to the widow of a sailor who lost his life on a convoy to Murmansk.

Yes, terrible business. Especially as they can't run away or hide. Until war stops, this is the result.

[pablo42]

Great stuff WW. More stuff I never knew. You sailor boys know your stuff.

[loudon]

Waterways,I have my uncles navy record plus a chart showing the Victorious just outside Tokyo,before it entered service it went to the US to be fitted out with among other things coke machines and ice cream equipment,Ive often wondered if the british on board were awarded a campaign medal from the US as they were awarded one from the Russians on the Baltic run.

[Waterways]

HMS Victorious was loaned to the US, after a request from the US, as they were desperate for carriers having lost a number and a few in dock, and renamed USS Robin flying the US flag. The British crew remained. She served in the south Pacific with Saratoga, and was later returned and named back into HMS Victorious. She later returned to the Pacific in 1945 with the British carrier fleet against Japan.

Victorious (USS Robin) operated 60 British and American Wildcat fighters. British owned planes repainted in US colours with British pilots. Victorious was named USS Robin so the Japs would not think the US was short of carriers and painted in measure 21 (5-N Navy Blue).

The crew remained with a different uniform, and with US additions. The planes were British and US owned, all in US markings, with the US planes having US pilots and the British, British pilots.

They developed a method of hanging the planes virtually over the sides, with the main wheels on deck and the tail wheels stretched out over the sea.

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Ships/Victorious.html
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conWebDoc.17844
"Send Her Victorious" (ISBN: 0718301021) by Michael Apps.

They even changed the uniforms of the crew to US. Search on Robin on this page http://www.cheshiremagazine.com/issu...esqueries.html

They also fitted ice cream and Coca Cola machines on board. Most Brits at the time probably had never heard of Coca Cola, as that only came into the UK post WW2 in any big way.


Combined U.S.N. Battle Group of HMS Victorious (foreground) renamed as USS Robin and USS Saratoga, at Noumea, New Caledonia, 1943

[brian daley]

Here is a picture that I would like to se the original of. It is the Frenc battleship "Richelieu" which was sunk in Dakar by the British in early hours of July 8th 1940. This was shown in that report/The Richelieu was laid down in1935 and was only completed at the beginning of WW11.We know she was 35.000 tons ,carried 8 15 inch guns,15 6 inch guns 18 anti aircraft guns.
The War Illustrated stated,there were no technical details or photographs available at that time. (1940) She was sunk to prevent the Vichy French turning her over to the Nazis.

[pablo42]

Here is a picture that I would like to se the original of. It is the Frenc battleship "Richelieu" which was sunk in Dakar by the British in early hours of July 8th 1940. This was shown in that report/The Richelieu was laid down in1935 and was only completed at the beginning of WW11.We know she was 35.000 tons ,carried 8 15 inch guns,15 6 inch guns 18 anti aircraft guns.
The War Illustrated stated,there were no technical details or photographs available at that time. (1940) She was sunk to prevent the Vichy French turning her over to the Nazis.

Great that Brian. Wasn't most of the French fleet sunk at Oraz???. The French Army also fought back in Syria. The British General said that if they fought that hard against the Germans, they wouldn't have lost.