Liverpool Exchange/

[petromax]

sorry, I'm having problems posting images. Any ideas?

I am not sure how unrealistic it is as it was produced in an authoratitive study using traffic generation from city developments. Also, it does show the outer loop through Hunt's Cross. I thought you might find it interesting.

[Waterways]

sorry, I'm having problems posting images. Any ideas?

I am not sure how unrealistic it is as it was produced in an authoratitive study using traffic generation from city developments. Also, it does show the outer loop through Hunt's Cross. I thought you might find it interesting.

It was interesting. A river crossing? Where? How? Why? However in the current climate Only the Canada Dock Branch (Bootle Line), Outer Loop, electric line to St. Helens, and Lime St to Hunts X would be on the cards.

[petromax]

Apparently, the number of movements generated by Liverpool Waters and Northshore could be satisfied by the 'historic' infrastructure in all directions but one - crossing the river. Cars just don't have the capacity and in any event the road tunnels are close to capacity. Even a rejuvenated Ferry couldn't meet anticipated demand, so the answer had to be a new rail link across the mersey. A tunnel is cheaper than a bridge (remarkably).

[petromax]

and yes in the curent climate, it can't be justified any longer but it was important to earmark the bits of property needed for when the upturn cometh so they didn't get built on.

It includes the outer loop and improvements to Hunts Cross but movements from St Helens would not be sufficent to justify any upgrade.

[scouse smurf]

I remember changing trains at Rock Ferry on the way to Wales when I was a kid. It was dead exciting. It wasn't till years a later when I had to get the train to ellesmere port that I remembered about having to change trains in the past. I wasn't as good

[Waterways]

Apparently, the number of movements generated by Liverpool Waters and Northshore could be satisfied by the 'historic' infrastructure in all directions but one - crossing the river. Cars just don't have the capacity and in any event the road tunnels are close to capacity. Even a rejuvenated Ferry couldn't meet anticipated demand, so the answer had to be a new rail link across the mersey. A tunnel is cheaper than a bridge (remarkably).

The current Mersey rail tunnel only handles 40% of its capacity. Use computerised signalling systems as on the London Jubilee line, which keep trains 30 seconds apart and there is nor need for a new crossing.

I went to a concert at the O2 in London and only 18,00 turned up, yes only 18,000. At the tube station there was a massive line of people. I was expecting a 1 hour wait to get in. I was inside and home near Central London in 50 minutes after concert end. The trains were coming in thick and fast.

The only Mersey crossing I can see happening is on a new barrier at New Brighton.

Depending on the approach roads a tunnel "can" be cheaper than a bridge. The Mersey had tunnels for defence reasons.

The bottom of the Queensway tunnel still can be used for trains. Well from Morpeth Dock vent tower to George's Dock vent tower.

[Waterways]

and yes in the curent climate, it can't be justified any longer but it was important to earmark the bits of property needed for when the upturn cometh so they didn't get built on.

It includes the outer loop and improvements to Hunts Cross but movements from St Helens would not be sufficent to justify any upgrade.

Liverpool-Manchester is being electrified ASAP, well the Manchester section first, and runs though St. Helens. Free electrification for Merseyrail.

[petromax]

It was concluded that the existing rail tunnel capacity would go well beyond 100% very quickly.

The location of the new crossing was considered to tie in with the network better at or near the centre.

The two options were costed. The tunnel was cheaper.

The bottom half of Queeensway was built for extra capacity but is now junked up with air handling equipment.

[petromax]

Liverpool-Manchester is being electrified ASAP, well the Manchester section first, and runs though St. Helens. Free electrification for Merseyrail.

Yes, it's maybe for 'free' if it runs through St. Helens but I understood it to be the Victoria Line via Huyton (from local press) but the traffic demand itself was for electrification to Manchester, not St. Helens.

[Waterways]

It was concluded that the existing rail tunnel capacity would go well beyond 100% very quickly.

You may find that is at the current signalling system. A new system, which is very expensive but cheaper than a tunnel, can shift, one train every 30 secs through the Mersey rail tunnel. That is 120 trains an hour with 900 on them. That is 108,000 people per hour one one-way. 216,000 two ways. Currently the maximum shifted is only around 40,000 per hour, one-way. Lots of scope before saturation. But I hope it comes soon.

The bottom half of Queeensway was built for extra capacity but is now junked up with air handling equipment.

......and emergency mustering points. However if the need was there, the mustering points could be cut into the tunnel at the road deck level and the underside used for rail. Still cheaper than a new tunnel. If need be the cars can be excluded fopr rail. Who needs cars pouring into Liverpool when 90% can use a train?

[petromax]

Getting a bit esoteric, but I believe 16no Merseyrail Electrics an hour currently run at peak times. Your figures imply an eight-fold increase in the number of trains which I suppose must be possible as you say it, although at that rate your max capacity would be approx 320,000 per hour, perhaps your trains are shorter to achieve 216,000. It's a moot point what would happen once you got out of the tunnels to the stations (a train emptying and filling every 30 seconds at James Street?)!! Where else has this signalling system been used?

Apparently the vent system is there to stay for sure (it's a continuous system end-to-end), unless you got rid of the cars altogether....now you're talking!

[scouse smurf]

Waterways, would all ur trains have a minimum of 6 carriage ? I'm getting sick of packed tight 3 carriage ones this last week