St James Church dig up 2,500 bodies, including slaves

[Ged]

On the contrary Cad, i'd say that to demolish a church to cash in on the land and build swanky apartments and make yourself a fortune is one thing, but they seem to be doing this here out of need to restore the church to a new congregation perhaps from the new dwellings appearing down that way?

[taffy]

On the contrary Cad, i'd say that to demolish a church to cash in on the land and build swanky apartments and make yourself a fortune is one thing, but they seem to be doing this here out of need to restore the church to a new congregation perhaps from the new dwellings appearing down that way?

This is the only case I know of a redundant church being brought back to community use as a church. As such the project should be supported. The accomodation will not be swanky apartments but sheltered housing for the disadvantaged

[wsteve55]

I think it stinks to be honest. Moving bodies for a purpose such as a church extension or when a church has been demolished is one thing - i.e. for the good of the congregation, but to move bodies simply because there will be a load of money to be made in this project stinks.

Whether the church is redundant or not, it is in that state for a reason, simply because there are no church goers who continued to support the church. For the church to re-open, there has to be a need of a new congregation, not just because someone can make a load of money out of it.

I think they should be commended, for even thinking of moving the bodies,whatever the purpose! In Liverpool, they used to just build over them,e.g. St. ??? church and graveyard, in Paradise st, "White City" dogtrack, once in Lower Breck rd,St.Oswalds junior school, in Old Swan,etc!

[fortinian]

...Oswalds junior school, in Old Swan,etc!

Don't mean to be an off-topic pedant but;

I believe that at the 1973(ish)? building of the junior school the bodies found in St Oswalds old churchyard were disinterred and respectfully cremated at Anfield crematorium.

There was a letter from the guy in charge of it in the Echo a few years ago when Tom Slemen tried to create a conspiracy theory about it.

[wsteve55]

Well,I was mixing it a bit!
My point being,that the authorities didn't always take the expected/assumed course of action, in these situations.Another example,is/was the Necropolis/Grant gardens.Apparently,after some digging around for the proposed tram-line, human remains were found,so some, if not all, former tenants, remain!

[fortinian]

You are right though... dead bodies of the poor and the weak were of little note to the planners of Victorian 'progress'.

It is rather ironic that we get so worked up today about modern planners destroying Victorian buildings when the Victorians themselves were so keen on the destruction of the past for the 'improvement' and 'modernisation' that the Industrial age entailed.

We are fortunate today that the planners are more enlightened to the pleas of the masses and will often - but not always - take into account historical value when they carry out work.

[Ronijayne]

Is that St. Oswald's church in Old Swan with the wishing well in the garden? I was christened there.

[Ged]

There's a whole thread on the mass grave in Old Swan here Ronijayne.


http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/fol...-old-swan.html






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[Waterways]

From that thread...

'I gave order to burn bodies'

Mar 2 2006

Maghull & Aintree Star

AS WITNESSED by the huge amount of correspondence received at Merseymart & Star , Tom Slemen's article on the Mass Grave discovered in Old Swan in 1973 drew reaction from many readers.

One letter that took issue with criminologist Keith Andrews's claims of a systematic massacre of Irish immigrants at the site in around 1848 was written by Liverpool's former principal environmental health officer, Ken Williams, who was in charge of the 1973 exhumation.

Printed here, it relates to this specific event - not the broader issues regarding the military and the treatment of the Irish.

Speaking to Merseymart & Star , he said: "I held my position from 1949 to 1989 and the first thing to note is that if you wanted to build or extend on sacred ground you had to consult the Home Office, which would in turn speak to the town clerk, who would then instruct me.

"The reason there were hoardings was that the Home Office's principal instruction is total decorum, and in this case there were houses on Montague Road overlooking the site.

"One comment was that these people had been shot and the Home Office were covering it up.

"The order to burn the bodies came from me and me alone - there were so many that after getting permission to put more than one in a single coffin, and re-inter them in Anfield I had to request permission for cremations.

"There were no bullet holes in the skulls, and there were already gravestones at the site - it was a marked grave..

"This discovery was simply beyond the boundary of that graveyard, extending much further than was realised - thousands more bodies.

"Contrary to one comment in the article, there were indeed coffins containing children discovered.

"There is also the obvious point that if this was the massacre of three-and-a-half-thousand people - why were they all in coffins with plaques and buried in such an ordered fashion?

"This was not people who had been thrown in a trench.

"Also, the date quoted for this 'massacre' was 1848, but some of the coffins had plaques with 1859 on them."Key role in the mass exhumation

I HAVE followed with great interest the recent articles in your paper with regard to the mass grave unearthed in St Oswald Street, Old Swan.

The principal officer delegated to be in charge of the entire operation was me.

When the original gravestones had been removed and the bodies re-interred the excavation continued beyond this boundary and it was at this stage other coffins were found. Some plaques on the coffin lids had dates of 1859, however this should not be considered to be a mass grave at any one time.

I do not recall seeing bullet marks in the skulls and the authorisation to cremate the bodies was implemented by the Home Office as the result of my request - that it should be done in the interest of public health. I know all this to be true - 'cause I was there!

K. A. WILLIAMS, Gateacre, Liverpool. (Former principal environmental health officer for Liverpool 1949-1989)

[Ged]

Just done it above WW

[Max]

Did Tom respond to that letter?

[Waterways]

Did Tom respond to that letter?

I doubt it

[Max]

If there ever posted on his forums, he usually just brushes them off as jealous people writing nonsense but never read him respond to the leters on a more public newspaper.

[Ged]

You would think that part of TS and KA research would have been to find and contact KAW, possible proof that their research isn't up to much

[Ronijayne]

There's a whole thread on the mass grave in Old Swan here Ronijayne.


http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/fol...-old-swan.html






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Wow, thank you Ged. What a good read. I read some before I went out this morning for aquatics class and could not wait to read more. My mother is from Baden Road and she and her family swear their house was haunted. They all saw a woman in grey. An ANGRY WOMAN at that, my mother said she used to hit her!! Never heard that before. My father who did not believe in ghosts also said he saw something and felt someone pass him when he stayed over on the couch one night when he was dating my mother. (Air raid sirens went off as he was leaving)

Now I will be google-ing to find out more about this.