Liverpool Waterloo Tunnel Update 10th Feb 2008

[Waterways]

Mike, the Waterloo Tunnel ends right smack in the middle of the Liverpool Waters complex at Central Docks. This will need rapid transport out of the city. Also areas like Byron ST and London Rd are served well and the word "re-generation" always comes up. A prime aim is to get these areas up and running, prosperous and populated. A Station into an integrated rail system will clearly work for these areas. It is the future that counts. People tend to be locked into the present.

[Waterways]

I think all the schemes should be integrated slowly and carfeully.

What is needed is a master plan. Then prioritise what needs to be integrated - spending excessive millions on trundling trams to assist Everton FC is just plain silly. The club's should go where the transport infrastructure is not the other way around. The same in getting passenger trains on the outer loop again - this is to justify getting Liverpool FC off ground in Anfield. None of these schemes will make any impact at all on the volume of people shifted at the stadia, the stations will just not have the throughput. If EFC & LFC were to share a stadium then it may be worth spending money on a high throughput station, which has knock of affects of modern signaling systems. However, regeneration of the inner cities is paramount and these stadia will not do that despite propaganda saying otherwise.

LFC regenerating Anfield? Yearrrrrr!!!! Sure they will. They have failed to do so in over 100 years and have been one of Europe's top club's for the past 35 years and in all that time total decline in the area.

Liverpool Waters and north end regeneration would be greatly enhanced if the Waterloo Tunnel is brought on-line, merged with the Northern Line and a station at the end of the tunnel.

I see the outer city loop as a mechanism to connect this parts of the city to the east and south and easy connections to the centre and beyond.

[Waterways]

If someone lives in Edge hill, they can go to the station now and there is a good quick rail service to the city centre, and a very good underground system specially designed in the 70s that could take them then to either the wirral, south liverpool, or north liverpool.

Mike that is true....but.....Edge Hill station is doudy and not in the centre of the district at all. It is out on limb. OK the city should have future planning congregating developments around this station making the station the centre of Edge Hill - the area does need serious regeneration.

The loop serves many inner city areas around the centre and interconnects with many other areas too. These inner city area have the same access as everyone else on the loop.

Look at The Circle Line in London. Look at a London tube map



The Circle Line is in yellow. See how main line stations are on it. Lines go out of the centre in a star and the circle line cuts through them. It is a great access line to get around the immediate centre and interconnect to the outer regions very easily.

The proposed Liverpool outer city centre loop will do exactly this. A circle line. It should be implemented ASAP.

[mike delamar]

I had an idea many years ago for the re opening of the ex cheshire lines, although i have seen several proposals over the years, ive never seen this particular idea, with a branch near hartleys hill Aintree along the old clc to hunts cross, which could also have the lines from walton through kirkdale and sandills (marked yellow) reinstated to 4 tracks if needed.



with regards the edge hill tunnels, i think the victoria and waterloo tunnels is a good idea.
i think the wapping tunnel on top of having a stream running nearby which causes water problems, is also built to a very tight loading gauge, Ive been told by ex railway men that 2 trains where not allowed to pass in the tunnel, such was the tightness of it, its one of the oldest railway tunnels ever, and the loading gauge is down to the size of locomotives at the time.

Mike

[jc_everton]

Mike, interesting proposals there, and good use of map annotation too, I should sometimes use maps to explain things!

Thing is with the CLC is, you have to look at why it closed in the first place. Passenger numbers were so low. It was populated in Knotty Ash/Warbreck 50 years ago, not much more than it is today, so why would this line be of any use to us now? Especially with the massive increase in car usage. As much I advocate rail reopenings, this line really does not serve much purpose.

Sure, it does increase passenger options, and it is making good use of old infrastructure, but it would really need to link in with St Helens line near the A57.

However, following on from my idea of the NMB being used as a freight-line (perhaps with some scope for passenger use), a new link could be created near Aintree Station, taking the NMB onto the old CLC, allowing freight to move south, where most of it seems to go.

This actually makes a lot of sense, as there are time restrictions on the Bootle Branch, and passenger services could be returning in the future, meaning the line will be passenger by day and freight at night.

This is only a plan I've just thought up, but if it could gain some backing (at least on here), it's a start!

Problems? Obviously, the line is a cycle path. But it's not as if the whole CLC is being used for rail. North of Aintree Station, the line would of course remain a cycle path. Perhaps there may be some scope for half rail, half cycle path? It is a compromise.

There is also the problem of depth - the CLC is lower than than the NMB, but there is plenty of land around the site for this to be developed. I drew up a map of what I mean but I can't bloody upload it. I wish I could just copy and paste. If anyone can help, that'd be great.

[jc_everton]

I actually meant to talk about the Line north of Aintree but got sidetracked with the uploading/faffing around.

A station in Maghull at the old site, by the Snooker Hall, would be fantastic, and there would definitely be high demand, but again, it would have to link in somehow with a Liverpool-bound line for it to have any chance of a consideration. And the fact that Switch Island is slap bang in the middle of the old line would be a major logistical problem.

Other than that, I can't see any purpose for the line. Gateacre maybe has a case, as it is not served by rail and the line is nowhere near as neglected as the Aintree - Maghull section. But again, the train would have to travel south, then west, then north, just to get to town. Would it really be worth it, time-wise? if it was direct, maybe. But indirectly, I can't see it being much quicker than a bus. Unfortunately.

[Waterways]

The Waterloo and Wapping Tunnels - the red lines. The nearside is the Waterloo Tunnel (well Victoria Tunnel and Waterloo all in one tunnel). These tunnels run under the city centre. In a city that is increasing its city centre population to pretty dense levels, not using them is criminal and gross amateurism by Merseyrail planners.

[Ged]

And wouldn't that cream topped Bestway building site look just great as the new home of Everton, on Scotland Road - a true city centre peoples club.

[Waterways]

Below: The Circle Line. 12 stations in all.
The used Brunswick Stn is off picture to the right.
Four stations are already in use, but Edge Hill would probably need a major update.
Two stations are laying there disused being cheap to bring on-line.
One underground station at Byrom St cutting is easy to construct.
Two stations cut in a cut and cover build.
Only one station cut out of the tunnel at London Rd/Royal Hospital.
A new easy to construct overground station at Waterloo Dock



Ged, it would be served by Byrom St station, if this Circle Line was ever built of course. The site is really just too small - nice it it was big enough.

Just look at the area just in from Waterloo Dock. Full of ramshackle small companies. This could be cleared and the companies moved to state-of-the-art business parks. What a location. near to the centre, Merseyrail station near, etc.

[Waterways]

The proposed Circle Line, in Red. Stations at top running clockwise:

• Waterloo Dock
• Byrom St
• London Rd
• Edge Hill
• Lodge Lane
• Sefton Pk Rd
• Dingle
• Brunswick
• St James
• Central
• Lime St
• Moorefields

The black line is the new line in from ST Helens.

It is easy to see the great enhancement it makes to the city's underground. And 80% of the Circle Line is already in place.

[PhilipG]

Seeing it drawn like that reminds me of the 60 bus route.
Fine in theory, but one of the worst bus services in Liverpool, probably because it never attracts many passengers.
You can be waiting up to half an hour for one, and when it finally arrives, there might be only half a dozen people on it!

[Waterways]

Seeing it drawn like that reminds me of the 60 bus route.
Fine in theory, but one of the worst bus services in Liverpool, probably because it never attracts many passengers.
You can be waiting up to half an hour for one, and when it finally arrives, there might be only half a dozen people on it!

The 60 bus was an outer city circle route, Dingle to Bootle via Old Swan. That line is inner circle catching all the major points in the city..and rapid underground transport.

[PhilipG]

The 60 bus was an outer city circle route, Dingle to Bootle via Old Swan. That line is inner circle catching all the major points in the city..and rapid underground transport.

Thanks.
I consider my wriists well slapped.

[andyk]

I've been following this thread with great interest. Sadly, I can't see anything like this ever materialising, but you never know,the demise of the private car might provide the necessary impetus.The reinstatement of the south Burscough-curve,is a perfect example of the short-sightedness of our movers and shakers.Requiring very little in the way of capital-investment,the improved access to Ormskirk and Preston from Southport would be considerable.Burscough is growing fast and improved links to Liverpool would make the town very attractive to commuters.When you examen the little frequented D.M.U shuttle-service in operation between Ormskirk and Preston it is hard to believe that the line has a promising future,but studies have clearly shown its' potential.

[Waterways]

I've been following this thread with great interest. Sadly, I can't see anything like this ever materialising, but you never know,the demise of the private car might provide the necessary impetus.The reinstatement of the south Burscough-curve,is a perfect example of the short-sightedness of our movers and shakers.Requiring very little in the way of capital-investment,the improved access to Ormskirk and Preston from Southport would be considerable.Burscough is growing fast and improved links to Liverpool would make the town very attractive to commuters.When you examen the little frequented D.M.U shuttle-service in operation between Ormskirk and Preston it is hard to believe that the line has a promising future,but studies have clearly shown its' potential.

Andy,

All due respect, but this scheme is the for Liverpool centre which is being targetted as a major development area with an increased more dense population. The Circle Line does make a lot of sense and over 80% is in place. It is beneath our feet. It makes outer suburbs and towns easier to connect onto the the Liverpool centre. The lines hit the circle, go around it, nit all major parts of Liverpool, the business, shopping and tourist districts, and back out up the line.

The reason it will not go ahead are many:

• Vested interest in Big Ears, ding dong, trams. (transport consultancies who have made millions from producing sweet FA)
• Ignorance in that they have not thought of it.
• petty local politics
• etc

The reality is that we need it, and most of it is in place.