I hear that the lady who objected to the Edge Lane scheme is not directly affected by it ie. a busy-body. Is this correct?
I hear that the lady who objected to the Edge Lane scheme is not directly affected by it ie. a busy-body. Is this correct?
No, it is incorrect. She is directly affected. Elizabeth Pascoe is a homeowner in Adderley Street which is subject to the Edge Lane West CPO.Originally Posted by petromax
CPO Area
So you are arguing that we should first encourage congestion in the city centre BEFORE we attempt to remove it by having an integrated public transport system? Why not cut to the chase? Avoid the congestion and develop an integrated transport system.
Anyone who knows London could verify that every local high street carries more traffic than Edge Lane. The idea that Edge Lane has a serious traffic problem, and the only way to solve this is to build a dual carriageway all the way to the city centre is laughable. Because it's easy to park your car in town people are used to driving in. This should not be encouraged.
[QUOTE=kat;70897].I think your missing the point regarding housing and in particular the council, what I said was true and valid from somebody that worked in many different council departments across the UK. Each year councils were forced to make cut backs sadly all too often and I know because I worked for a time in stock control we had regular tenants smashing things like toilet pans, baths, new plaster scrapped off the walls, it didnt take many of these to make cash in demand, oh and every time we didnt do something rest assured we were taken to court. More often than not it turned out tenants smashed up their own property to get rehoused
Are you suggesting this is what occurred in the Edge Lane area? If not, I'm not sure how this is relevant to this debate.
Again, your anecdotes are interesting but how do they fit the Edge Lane area?"FACT". If tenants maintaine their homes to a reasonable standard it should only require minimal maintanance. it doesnt take much to financially cripple a council, thank goodness they got out of the housing stock game. How dis heartening it was to see plumbers get a repair sheet for toilets smashed only to have to go back a few weeks later to replace them. Common things, broken windows (regular) broken doors (lost keys), broken toilet pans, all adds up.
Where's your evidence that people don't feel safe travelling by local transport? This is an anecdote. People who drive cars often say this so that they continue to do as they wish - sad but true fact.Regarding the motorway or rather edge lane widening plane, dont forget if they are increasing the citys capacity and business infa structure then transport is a key part of this redevelopment, and yes, I think the council do have it about right. People feel safer travelling in their own cars (sad but true fact). It was just sad that Liverpool never had a suitable motorway link directly in to the city center years ago. And lets not forget it wasnt that long ago that manchester got its final links in its ring road, not to mention princess park way which was a dual carriage way but is now part of the M602. if your going to attract busness they want viable transport routes, be that rail road or by airIMO people should be discouraged from using their cars as much as possible. If there are genuine (as opposed to self-serving) concerns about safety then these need to be properly addressed.
I'm still waiting for someone to answer my question: Has there ever been a case where a community living in a place like Edge Hill, Anfiield or parts of L8 has been offered the CHOICE of refurbishment/rennovation of existing housing stock and they have turned it down?
Thanks for the map, Howie.
I can now get snapping!
Jericho.
As somebody who has used public transport on Merseyside for over 40 years (I don't drive), there are quite a lot of times I don't feel safe, and that is not an anecdote. I even worked on the busses in the 1960s.
If it's not young people on the bus causing trouble and smoking dope, there is a chance that the bus will be stoned.
The trains are marginally better because police now patrol Merseyrail, but they can't be in every carriage all the time.
Last edited by PhilipG; 07-30-2007 at 10:58 AM.
Jericho
Where's your evidence that people don't feel safe travelling by local transport.
Look at the investment in cameras on trains, train stations, bus terminals, bus's, and look at the slogans on some of the trains reminding us that cameras are installed for our safety? why would all this investment need to take place if everyone felt safe on public transport, thats "fact"
Merseyside transport police now patrol the underground on a regular bases, if people already felt safe before this then why bother to invest in police officers on trains?
Why should the council re invest in run down housing stock, and no my evidence is not ancidotal its factual. Regarding how does this relate to edge lane, well, there are or rather were private landlords and some social landlords in the area. If you turn around what has been said and your implying that private home owners are responsible for the condition of their own propertys? then why should the council tax payer foot the bill to refurbish homes that private owners cannot be bothered to maintaine? sure everyone would like their existing homes done up for free! and what about the infa structure, safe places to park cars? green spaces, refurbishment doesnt bring about those without demolition. All housing stock has a shelf life, the condition of roofing timbers, lack of damp coursing, poor insultion values lead water pipes no heating rotten windows, all adds to the cost. and in the end what would they end up with? the same problems they had before (just suspended).
With regards to the road, they have to invest in the road to bring in new business to the city center and to attract further investment. Every city needs to have a good transport infa structure.
kat
I'm sorry to hear about your experiences of not feeling safe. I don't travel much by bus because I'm only 5 minutes away from a train station and (anecdotally) I have never felt unsafe. I know of one person who was travelling by a train into Central a few years ago and some yobs threw a paving stone from the bridge at Fulwood Park. I read that there have been a series of similar events in north Liverpool and on the Wirral over the past few months. I also remember something about kids stoning the night bus in the Garston area recently.
On the other hand, if you think about the number of bus/train journeys made a day and the number of occasions there is any trouble, statistically such incidents will be the exception not the rule and yet the local media often present it as if it's happening all the time.
My main point, however, was about discouraging car usage. Concerns about safety need to be dealt with ASAP.
I'm certainly with you about discouraging car use.
As I said, I don't drive (for a number of reasons, one is from a green point of view), and while I'm waiting for busses, practically all the cars just contain the driver, and nobody else.
About feeling safe on public transport - I won't use it in the evenings!
Hi Kat,Jericho
Where's your evidence that people don't feel safe travelling by local transport.
Look at the investment in cameras on trains, train stations, bus terminals, bus's, and look at the slogans on some of the trains reminding us that cameras are installed for our safety? why would all this investment need to take place if everyone felt safe on public transport, thats "fact"
Merseyside transport police now patrol the underground on a regular bases, if people already felt safe before this then why bother to invest in police officers on trains?
Why should the council re invest in run down housing stock, and no my evidence is not ancidotal its factual. Regarding how does this relate to edge lane, well, there are or rather were private landlords and some social landlords in the area. If you turn around what has been said and your implying that private home owners are responsible for the condition of their own propertys? then why should the council tax payer foot the bill to refurbish homes that private owners cannot be bothered to maintaine? sure everyone would like their existing homes done up for free! and what about the infa structure, safe places to park cars? green spaces, refurbishment doesnt bring about those without demolition. All housing stock has a shelf life, the condition of roofing timbers, lack of damp coursing, poor insultion values lead water pipes no heating rotten windows, all adds to the cost. and in the end what would they end up with? the same problems they had before (just suspended).
With regards to the road, they have to invest in the road to bring in new business to the city center and to attract further investment. Every city needs to have a good transport infa structure.
kat
I have addressed the issue about safety above.
In terms of who foots the bill for rennovation, I think people who don't have a morgage or have paid for their property should be put in one of those schemes whereby they own a certain percentage of their property and the housing association owns the rest. In terms of additional costs, the cost of demolishing exisiting properties and building new ones as part of social housing provision would be offset by using this money to rennovate exisiting areas and giving people a real stake in their community. Maybe then they will leave the plumbing and bathroom fittings alone! In a capitalist system the more this type of scheme was operated the cheaper it would become.
BTW, did all the tenants behave in the way you describe in your post?
In terms of roads - Liverpool's roads are fine. There isn't any meaningful congestion. I can drive from where I live in Aigburth to anywhere in town in about 10 minutes (if I get caught in a bit of traffic at a traffic light). Even at rush hour, I can still do it in 20 minutes. We don't need any more dual carriageways in the centre of town. There isn't the demand for them. The only place I can see a demand would be from Seaforth docks to Switch Island in order to get the lorries away from the port.
I’ll spend £200m on my grot spots, if only city will let me
Jul 31 2007
by Nick Coligan, Liverpool Echo
TYCOON Albert Gubay today unveiled his £200m plan to transform Liverpool’s Edge Lane.
It includes turning Edge Lane retail park into a 21st-century shopping and leisure complex – and the demise of the city’s three worst grotspots.
His company, Derwent Holdings, revealed its intentions for the important site days after Liverpool council threatened legal action to tidy up eyesores on the key route.
The firm claims it has been trying to regenerate the area for eight years – but has so far failed to receive crucial backing from city councillors.
But the council says Derwent has yet to come up with the type of scheme it wants for Edge Lane.
Derwent’s proposal would see:
Edge Lane retail park demolished and replaced with modern shops and leisure facilities, with most of the current stores moving into the new premises. Offices and a hotel would also be built.
A central boulevard through the rebuilt retail park, with views over the city centre.
The notorious Rugs 2 Go and Klaussner site transformed into housing.
The derelict Advent car showroom demolished and replaced with leisure facilities.
A former factory site in Mill Lane, off Edge Lane, redeveloped into small industrial units and housing.
Derwent, which owns the retail park, says the scheme is entirely privately funded by Mr Gubay’s property empire and could start as soon as it got council approval.
A spokesman said: “For the past 25 years, we have been instrumental in pioneering the development and regeneration of this section of Edge Lane.
“We were interested in developing this area when it had long been neglected and fallen into disrepair. At the time, the area was a scene of industrial desolation.
“We have been proud to make a contribution to what we see as the beginnings of the renovation of this vital gateway into Liverpool.
“For the last eight years, we have been seeking to comprehensively develop our land in Edge Lane with a view to producing a world-class scheme appropriate for the 21st century.
“We have been continuously and bitterly frustrated in that desire by a staggering series of last-minute U-turns and broken promises on the part of the council.”
Derwent claims it has twice held lengthy talks about possible schemes for Edge Lane, in 1999 and 2001, only for the council to step back at the last minute.
It also says it presented its current proposal to the council in February, but was told it was “too ambitious”.
Its spokesman said: “It seems the council is pursuing an agenda for development in Liverpool which just does not include any satisfactory proposals for Edge Lane.
“By closing off crossing spaces in the central reservation, it is producing what amounts to a sterile corridor for traffic from the M62 to the city centre.
We have been, and continue to be, open to any discussions with the council to resolve the current stalemate. Ultimately, we must work together for the good of the city we all love.”
Liverpool council is mid way through the Edge Lane Project, a multi-million pound scheme to improve the road and the buildings alongside it.
Officials today hit back at Derwent Holdings, saying it has ignored guidance on the best way to revitalise Edge Lane.
A spokesman said: “While discussions have been held between council officers and the landowner over a number of years, the details are necessarily confidential.
“However, to achieve the outcome sought by both parties – the environmental improvement of Edge Lane and an attractive retail and leisure offer – we have repeatedly stated that a comprehensive scheme is needed, in accordance with national and local planning guidance.
“The landowner has either submitted incremental proposals with little or no justification, or proposals of such a scale and form that could not achieve planning permission.
“Our advice and guidance has been ignored to date.
“If followed, it could lead to a comprehensive scheme for the redevelopment of this important and strategic section of Edge Lane.”
nick.coligan@liverpool.com
Source: Liverpool Echo
Philip I am with you on this one.
I have to use the bus when I can't get a lift.
Depends which bus route you have to use I suppose, but using the 14 which goes from town right through to Broadway, Croxteth etc, is like being on Boffo Tours !!
Not too bad mornings - when all the 'nom de plumes' are still in their pits - - but any later you are subject to all manner of sights and sounds - and smells !
ie; screaming kids and screaming mothers .. ''gerr'eerr NOW'' , loud mobile phone conversations down your lughole ! hoodies smoking foul smelling stinky stuff, vile language, empty coke cans rolling around from one end of the bus to the other - - not to mention when the school kids pile on after school lets out
.... and you wonder why people would rather go by car !
my husband refuses to travel by bus - he refuses to have to sit surrounded by foul mouth hoodies, litter and graffiti'd seats - and I don't blame him.
(My stepfather hasn't been on a bus for about 40 years !! and is not about to start ! )
Who can blame people wanting to use the comfort and privacy of their own transport. Especially these days with what we have to contend with (anti-social stuff).
A lot of people feel unsafe on public transport at evening times.
I heard that the Regal Bingo in Broadway was going to close, so I went to take photos, and caught the 14 on a Saturday afternoon.
It wasn't a case of feeling unsafe, because I was genuinely frightened on that day.
Those things you get for parties that explode and shoot out streams of sticky stuff, not sure what they're called, were being set off by about 8 youths at the back of the bus. Not children, they were about 16 to 19.
The bus was quite full, so I had no choice but to sit a couple of seats in front of them.
I knew they were just hoping that me (or somebody) was going to tackle them, but I'm not a hero, so I sat, disgusted with myself for letting them shoot these things at me.
As I was getting off I asked a young mother at the front of the bus whether there was anything on my back. She said no, and I could hear the laugh in her voice.
The back of my jacket was covered in the stuff!
Hi, Jericho,
statistics are a wonderfull tool until something happens to you then you become part of that statistic. There has (sadly been a long standing issue over the safety of passengers on public transport)
I still do not beleive it is a safe way to travel and, like one poster has already said he wouldnt venture out at night on public transport. I was told off a few years back on a bus travelling home late at night on my own, the bus driver said to my that I was asking for trouble and made things difficult for him should something happen!!!.
I have boarded the tube trains late at night and it sure is a scary place, drunks, drug addicts they all seem to come out late at night.
Over here in the wirral we have had in the last twelve months people being pushed off stations onto railway lines. Regular court sessions to do with people being beaten up at conway park train station. so, I dont consider public transport safe especially when I am restricted to what time I can and cannot use it. With regards to doing up houses, it really isnt as simple as that, I mean what happens if people just dont want to invest in their homes and that the council is trying to inject new investment into an area by making it more viable, (shops places to go green spaces car parking) alot of people moved out of parts of edge lane long before the proposed works indeed alot have gone since because generally people have told us time and again, that they want a better nicer place to bring up their children. There fed up with mr/mrs druggie on the corner, or the getto no go areas. Hence why areas are looked at in a more complex form than you think. I am sure you may have come across the "phrase" designing crime out"? well, thats what they are trying to do, make a place more nicer to live in. And the other side of the coin too, is there are alot of propertys in Liverpool in the low council tax band, wirral has the same problem too.
kat
David Waugh, who was head of Liverpool Land Development Corporation spent the latter half of a very successful career revolutionising Speke; creating thoudands of jobs and making Liverpool a more attractive place for people to invest in and create more jobs in. After years of trying to do the same thing at Edge Lane and meeting such opposition and people who prefer to live in squalor as long as it's their own squalor, it's no wonder he resigned.
As for the rotten state of the buses and public transport in general, the answer is better control of feral louts rather than the selfishness of cars and more cars.
I was walking in Manchester the other day and was spat on FROM a passing bus by kids who though it was of course hugely funny.
Fortunately it was just stopping at a bus stop.
I complained to the driver who immediately turned off the engine and called the police. He said there was no need for me to hang around and get involved as the police would soon sort it.
There are ways these things can be dealt with without risking being a hero.
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