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Thread: Housing Mistakes

  1. #136
    Senior Member chasevans's Avatar
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    I refuse to get drawn into this BLEEDING PEEL discussion. Any more and I'm walking away from it!

  2. #137
    Member Peter McGurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
    Was that really true fort the Liverpool blocks?

    The only one I drove by regularly is now "gentrified" but I believe was an original 60's block.

    It is the one near the North end of Seffie Park. A google map view does not seem to show any specific park area arounf it - Sefton Park was there before it...

    http://g.co/maps/55jdu

    I don't remember much parkland around the tower blocks...
    Hence the 'quotes'. Let's settle for 'hard and soft landscaped' instead of 'parkland'. The Heysmoor block does look tight but look at these on the other side of the park (and compare with the terraced houses)


    Picture 13 by Peter McGurk, on Flickr


    Heysmoor Heights is however a good example of 'badly designed' as a concept turning out to be not so badly designed at all... and despite what it says below, actually pretty much in demand.

    "Heysmoor Heights, Sefton Park, Liverpool

    Heysmoor Heights was completed in 1966 and residents moved in the same year, however it was not originally called Heysmoor Heights. It originally consisted of 58 flats but they now apparently boast of 98 "luxury" apartments. Heysmoor Heights must have been vacated in late 2005 / early 2006 as work started later that year. There was a fire at the block during the refurbishment but it has been successfully completed now.

    Heysmoor Heights is the other isolated block of flats located on the edge of Sefton Park. It is the same style as the other 7 located in Sefton Park.

    Heysmoor Heights must have been vacated of all its occupants before being sold off to a developer. These flats were originally 3 bedroomed flats however they have been converted into 1-2 bedroomed 'luxury' apartments.

    I think the conversion on this block is awful and the 5 just a bit further down the road look much better, as you can see a lot of this side of the block looks very empty and for the asking price (£108,000) you can see why."


    http://www.flickr.com/photos/tokyoroad/2803507834/

  3. #138
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    Accepting your 7.7% as settled for a second,
    Kate Barker report.

    that percentage may not be the percentage actually needed to sustain the population, have work, grow food, have transport, leisure, moors, mountains and other ‘un-settlable’ land. However, I think anyone who argues that this is not a crowded island is on distinctly shaky ground.
    The UK is empty!
    Far too much land is given over to agriculture, about 78%, which only accounts for about 2.5% of the UK economy. This poor performing over subsidised industry is absorbing land that could be better used economically in commerce and for much needed spacious higher quality homes for the population. Much of the land is paid to remain idle out of our taxes. The UK could actually abandon most of agriculture and import most of its food, as food is obtainable cheaper elsewhere.

    The overall agricultural subsidy is over £5 billion per year. This is £5 billion to an industry whose total turnover is only £15 billion per annum. Unbelievable. This implies huge inefficiency in the agricultural industry, about 40% on the £15 billion figure. Applied to the acres agriculture absorbs, and approximately 16 million acres are uneconomic. Apply real economics to farming and you theoretically free up 16 million acres, which is near 27% of the total UK land mass.

    This is land that certainly could be put to better use for the population of the UK. Allowing the population to spread out and live amongst nature is highly desirable and simultaneously lowering land prices.

    50% of the EU budget is allocated to the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP). CAP is supporting a lifestyle of a very small minority of country dwellers in a poor performing industry. In effect that is its prime function.

    Look at Dr Duncan Pickard on the CAP - Farming off the Dole. CAP keeps land under agriculture that could be put to better uses.
    http://www.cooperativeindividualism....griculture.pdf
    DATA ON LAND USAGE

    The land cover of Great Britain is 23.5m hectares. Taken from the Office of National Statistics, in 2002, usage was as follows:
    • Settled land - 1.8m hectares. 7.65% of the land mass.
    • Agricultural land - 10.8m hectares. 45.96% of the land mass.
    • Semi-natural land, with much uses as agricultural land - 7.0m hectares. 29.78% of the land mass.
    • Woodland - 2.8m hectares. 11.91% of the land mass
    • Water bodies - 0.3m hectares. 1.28% of the land mass.
    • Sundry, largely transport infrastructure - 0.8m hectares. 3.42% of the land mass.


    The Town & Country Planning act is in effect an act to control the population, rather than ensure adequate agricultural land is available, protect areas of natural beauty or promote first class habitation. The latter it certainly does not do.

    Notwithstanding that, there are 64,000 Hectares of 'brownfield site' in the UK.
    Countryside organisations are demanding all city brownfield sites be built on. Many foolishly think all new developments can be on brownfield sites despite only 14% of demand being catered for on current brownfield sites. This should be resisted as we now have an ideal opportunity to leave most of these sites vacant, cleaned up and made natural again by turning them into parks, woods and encouraging wildlife for the local population to enjoy. This is an ideal opportunity to improve brownfield areas, improving the quality of life of urban dwellers. Righting the wrongs of the incompetent planners of the past. Areas like Hampstead Heath could be actively encouraged. Woods in towns and cities would also be a great bonus. The deliberate differentiation between town and country requires abolition as the Town & Country planning act attempts to divide. Using the words town and country sets the tone. It creates conflict. It creates two separate societies. It creates distrust.

    Now, all the props are... not quite gone and we have had raging house price inflation fueled by irresponsible banks. That has been the major driver of higher prices. Not land shortage.
    Artificial land shortages ratchets up land prices. The reason for

    Economist Fred Harrison....

    "Any good economist will tell you, as people's real disposable incomes rise, that money ends up in one place, and one place only, the LAND MARKET. As there is growth land values rise, and it should rise. Except, the problem occurred when that increase in value went into private pockets instead of going into services: highways, hospitals, schools and so on, that created that value in the first place"
    ..
    ..
    "This is the sources of our problem, not bankers, big bonuses, sub-prime mortgages in America and the other excuses they have. This is the heart of the problem of the market economy, we have to address it. There has to be political consensus, there has to consensus, with no body playing party politics"

    The above is at. 3 min 35 secs

    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

    Save Royal Iris - Sign Petition

  4. #139
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
    Was that really true fort the Liverpool blocks?

    The only one I drove by regularly is now "gentrified" but I believe was an original 60's block.

    It is the one near the North end of Seffie Park. A google map view does not seem to show any specific park area arounf it - Sefton Park was there before it...

    http://g.co/maps/55jdu

    I don't remember much parkland around the tower blocks...
    I don't believe there was much parkland around many of the blocks, think of Mazzini, Garibaldi and Cavour - concrete jungles. It might be true that some of the blocks density might only have been say a 3rd due to the surrounding parkland footprint but that's about it - never the same as 2 storey houses. In fact look at the houses that have replaced even the four storey 30s tenements on the like for like land - only 150 houses per 400 flats at best.
    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

  5. #140
    Member Peter McGurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasevans View Post
    I refuse to get drawn into this BLEEDING PEEL discussion. Any more and I'm walking away from it!
    Shout louder. That's convincing.

  6. #141
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Stop lionizing Peel. They bring no manna from heaven.
    No, you stop unless you've a better alternative. Where were you when the MDHC were up for sale, you didn't buy it. Why do you want it to remain a wasteland. Do you live in Vauxhall, ah no, thought not but I have plenty of family who do and welcome what could be done with it if only the people who have a lot to say but not a lot to do would just let them get on with it.

    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

  7. #142
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

  8. #143
    Senior Member chasevans's Avatar
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    Our Willie.One of my partners in crime from our Royal Tiger days?

  9. #144
    Senior Member Brian-P's Avatar
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    That's a smashing little site.

    Loved the picture in Architecture of how the original RC cathedral was going to look.

  10. #145
    Member Peter McGurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    I don't believe there was much parkland around many of the blocks, think of Mazzini, Garibaldi and Cavour - concrete jungles. It might be true that some of the blocks density might only have been say a 3rd due to the surrounding parkland footprint but that's about it - never the same as 2 storey houses. In fact look at the houses that have replaced even the four storey 30s tenements on the like for like land - only 150 houses per 400 flats at best.
    I think this is clearer:


    Picture 16 by Peter McGurk, on Flickr

  11. #146
    Senior Member az_gila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    I think this is clearer:


    Picture 16 by Peter McGurk, on Flickr
    Pretty picture, but were the Liverpool blocks ever built with that much space around them? Even your picture of the three by Seffie Park is more dense than your diagram.

  12. #147
    Member Peter McGurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
    Pretty picture, but were the Liverpool blocks ever built with that much space around them? Even your picture of the three by Seffie Park is more dense than your diagram.
    I wouldn't say so. You need to relate the height of the towers to the plot size too.

    Even so, the point is the comparison between the different types. Some sites would be bigger, some smaller. Some towers higher, some lower but the comparison remains valid. That tower of that height has the same density as the site with two-storey houses on it.

    Keep it apples with apples. As I said, just look at the google image and compare the terraced houses with the plot and block size of the Sefton Park towers.

    (There's none so blind as...)

  13. #148
    Senior Member chasevans's Avatar
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    Hi Peter,
    Have you any thoughts of post 131 ?
    Don't let me down, mate.
    Chas

  14. #149
    Member Peter McGurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasevans View Post
    Hi Peter,
    Have you any thoughts of post 131 ?
    Don't let me down, mate.
    Chas
    I have thoughts on most things mate. I share some of them when I've got time. Why don't you go and have your tea?

  15. #150
    Senior Member chasevans's Avatar
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    POST 131

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