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Thread: Planning decision on Liverpool Waters will be delayed until after Unesco inspection

  1. #31
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Tell me where I shift shape Chas as you continue to further intrigue me with your perceptions of me.

    You even claim to have read my books where I cleared laud the old communities and particularly tenements yet decided they were things I did not like. Strange days indeed mama as Mr Lennon once said.

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  2. #32
    Senior Member chasevans's Avatar
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    Thumbs down All a matter of deception

    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Tell me where I shift shape Chas as you continue to further intrigue me with your perceptions of me.
    You may have to stay intrigued a while longer. Me and my mates in the bar are having a heated debate about the new Scottish museum.
    I say it looks good, Pricey says it's not as good as Liverpool's newest development, feelings are running high. Pricey's face is red with anger but that's nothing new!
    "Calm down", shouts the landlord, " you'll wake up the bairns." Talk settles to the new Thwaites brewery, now that's something we should all be worrying about.
    I will reply to the second part of your post after I've checked through my past postings.
    Perceptions, well that's how you perceive someone, canny lad.
    Cheers,
    Chas

  3. #33
    Senior Member gregs dad's Avatar
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    Not worth debating about the towers as they are only here for a lttle while.About 40 years I would say,
    It`s called planned obsolescence. Alexandra Tower on Princes dock, has been let for a couple of years now and still there works going on in there judging by barriers and material around.

    As the old man said "They are tearing down buildings I helped build"
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  4. #34
    Senior Member chasevans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregs dad View Post
    Not worth debating about the towers as they are only here for a lttle while.About 40 years I would say,
    It`s called planned obsolescence. Alexandra Tower on Princes dock, has been let for a couple of years now and still there works going on in there judging by barriers and material around.

    As the old man said "They are tearing down buildings I helped build"
    The Vauxhall community stood firm in the past, I hope that spirit is still alive There will be other options eventually, PEEL is a shady organization. I can imagine the boardroom howling if Merseyside decide to "dance with the devil", quoted from PEEL management.There's a saying " the devil looks after his own". Peel are Manchester based, can we really expect them to look after Merseysiders?

    Thanks, Gregs dad, for making an important point on which I agree!!!
    Whatever happens it will be short term, but, we could be leaving a legacy of more destruction and chaos if the deal goes through.
    still PEELing
    Chas

    No offense to Mancs, Liverpublians, Evertonians, only PEEL HOLDINGS
    Last edited by chasevans; 07-28-2011 at 09:08 PM. Reason: postscript

  5. #35
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasevans View Post
    There will be other options eventually, PEEL is a shady organization. I can imagine the boardroom howling if Merseyside decide to "dance with the devil", quoted from PEEL management.There's a saying " the devil looks after his own". Peel are Manchester based, can we really expect them to look after Merseysiders?

    Thanks, Gregs dad, for making an important point on which I agree!!!
    Whatever happens it will be short term, but, we could be leaving a legacy of more destruction and chaos if the deal goes through.
    still PEELing
    Peel are primarily a LAND company. They are no dynamic creator of economic growth for sure. If they sold the land tomorrow another such company would step in their shoes. The hot air proposals, boy haven't wee seen many of those, are to inflate the land values. Then they can negotiate with developers in a position of financial strength. Either selling land, which they will rarely do, or negotiating leases, which is their aim - which is taking in rent.

    The way our laws are Peel will making a killing, no matter what happens. The point is the type of developments that will emerge. The site is a world heritage site and this charter should be respected. The site developed within the charter framework will promote Liverpool far greater than some quick slap-dash Salford or Docklands tat. We have seen enough of that in the South End Docks. Another large tat shed is proposed on Kings/Queens Dock, and some laud this as progress of some sort - I am a loss to see where.

    Peel should go by the rules. It is a WORLD HERITAGE SITE. They know the rules. Conform to them and its gets built. That is not difficult to understand. They do not and produce tat plans and ten people run top their defense shouting about jobs. I find it amazing that the naive support a bunch of Land/property sharks who want to bend the rules.

    Peel do not have billions to spend. Forget that. They have LAND. Others will develop the plots. They will develop few. They will lease out land, and take rent and in some cases sell plots, making a wedge in the untaxed value of the land they acquired for buttons. This is unearned income.

    Peel have had the site a long time. Liverpool got World Heritage Status quite a few years ago now. If Peel were such a wonder company they would have drawn up plans respecting the World Heritage Site and incorporated rapid-transit rail in the pre-credit Crunch era, when money was being poured into Liverpool - plans that respect the World Heritage Site to get the project under way. But Peel did sweet FA. It doesn't matter to them, the land values always rise, so they just sit there gaining all this windfall gain in land value which is untaxed.

    Peel have planned the large Wirral Waters as well. Liverpool and Wirral Waters do not have any provision for rapid-transit rail to run into any of these large developments - in a city with a rapid-transit rail network, that is easy to run into these projects. How odd! Anyone who is serious would make provision for rapid-transit transport, which is essential for the success of such projects. The Docklands Light Railways made Docklands in London a success. Without it, it would have failed.

    All very odd what Peel are doing - OR NOT DOING. Nevertheless, the land they own is still gaining in value. Wealth created from community activity, unearned income, which they keep untaxed, even though the land is derelict.

    Peel promise a lot. What they have promised over the years:
    • A freight terminal at the airport
    • A post-panamax container terminal
    • Wirral Waters
    • Liverpool Waters in a World Heritage Site
    • Port Salford
    • Port Warrington
    • The Irish ferry terminal at Langton Dock river wall
    • They were rambling about a second cruise liner terminal
    • etc,
    • etc
    All hot air.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  6. #36
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Ah Waterways, or is it Marineman from another forum where he is regularly ridiculed over the same nonesense.

    So Peel didn't build at the airport then, nor Salford, nor Media city?

    Perhaps it's all hot air at the moment because the powers that be won't let them get on with it. Fortunately, Wirral Council are not so backward thinking and have passed the Wirral Waters scheme - I hope LCC wake up too.

    WW, I would have expected you to want the docks to be brought back into use or are you only reigning interest in them?

    I actually agree with your LVT but your angst should be against the government for not bringing it in - not Peel.

    As for oh well something will be built there eventually if Peel don't - anbd pigs might fly - how long has it taken up to now?

    There's plenty that's been ripped down within 40 or 50 years of it being built whether it be the tenements, high rise or the rear of the library - biut Peel had nothing to do with them - it's called a life span.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member az_gila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    ...

    There's plenty that's been ripped down within 40 or 50 years of it being built whether it be the tenements, high rise or the rear of the library - biut Peel had nothing to do with them - it's called a life span.
    But nice buildings, well constructed, like the Liver Building make it past 100 years with no end in sight...

  8. #38
    Senior Member grekko's Avatar
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    I can't help feeling on reading some of the comments that if these opponents of change and progress were around approx 300 years ago, Liverpool, would have remained a backwater. Where were the planning committees , Unesco "experts", Preservation crusts then? Instead men of vision;admittedley not all were paragons of virtue, saw an opportunity to create wealth and during that creation helped grow a great port. So why do we have such a hatred for modern entrepreneurs whose ideas conflict with our own.....we don't seem to be creating anything. Instead lets just settle down in our daub and wattle and look at the nice buildings Grandpa and his mates built...... "they can't build like that nowadays you know lad".
    For gods sake lets take a leap and a chance, if we succede Yippeeee, if we fail we know we can try and fix it, or should we stagnate and decay like so much around us in the past has withered through lack of vision .

  9. #39

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    Lets not build towers

    Boo to Towers.
    BE NICE......................OR ELSE

  10. #40
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
    But nice buildings, well constructed, like the Liver Building make it past 100 years with no end in sight...
    That's true but they just don't built like that anymore anywhere. The pyramids have lasted quite a bit too

    ---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by grekko View Post
    if we fail we know we can try and fix it, or should we stagnate and decay like so much around us in the past has withered through lack of vision .
    Aye, i'd say if we fail (and that can only mean to fill them) then the site will still look better than a desolate wasteland with dust blowing by. If they fail in that way, only Peel will suffer so maybe it's a win win situation even for the Peel haters.
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  11. #41
    Senior Member gregs dad's Avatar
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    Howsabout a nice big park,with water features for the docks wasteland we certainlly don`t want any more empty flats.
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  12. #42
    Senior Member chasevans's Avatar
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    I think raising the question of why they don't build like that anymore is important. 10 years ago I used to meet up with a friend, Tommy (plasterer by trade). At the time there was renovation work being carried out in the Hope Street area. He was working out of town when he got transferred to the building in question. The engineer in charge of the site had gone ballistic over the low standards of workmanship. Plasterboards and light skimming of walls were all the men had been trained for, speed being the essence for their employer! Tommy was brought back with an apprentice to do the work properly.
    Why are tradesmen not being trained to the standards that we once had? It's a throwaway world where money rules everything, I'm afraid.
    The pyramids function was to keep out looters, at which they failed. I don't think they could ever be called beautiful.
    The Liver buildings, I'm sure most people's view would be beautiful.
    Ged.

    Best wishes,
    Chas

  13. #43
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Cheers Joe and Chas.

    A well planned park maybe could have been an option if LCC owned the land but when the MDHC cashed in on it to Peel for a return, they too will be looking to profit from it.

    The Pyramids are a WHS though Chas, you know, the all important UNESCO World Heritage Site and they are beautiful and meaningful to many. When big insurance companies were making an architectural statements such as the Royal Liver, Pearl Assurance etc, no expense was spared for their HQ's. Walker, Picton, William Brown and others were benefactors to the city and money was raised and given - that doesn't happen anymore. The next best thing though, since our councils are skint is that the likes of Grosvenor and Peel look to Liverpool with its unique sites ripe for redevelopment after years of nothing, I mean they're not looking at other cities who would no doubt snap their hands off.

    How disappointing it would be to return to the central docks site as a ghost in 2050 to see what is still there now. A stark possibility.
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  14. #44
    Senior Member az_gila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasevans View Post
    I think raising the question of why they don't build like that anymore is important. 10 years ago I used to meet up with a friend, Tommy (plasterer by trade). At the time there was renovation work being carried out in the Hope Street area. He was working out of town when he got transferred to the building in question. The engineer in charge of the site had gone ballistic over the low standards of workmanship. Plasterboards and light skimming of walls were all the men had been trained for, speed being the essence for their employer! Tommy was brought back with an apprentice to do the work properly.
    Why are tradesmen not being trained to the standards that we once had? It's a throwaway world where money rules everything, I'm afraid.
    The pyramids function was to keep out looters, at which they failed. I don't think they could ever be called beautiful.
    The Liver buildings, I'm sure most people's view would be beautiful.
    Ged.

    Best wishes,
    Chas
    But as far as speed of building goes, the Liver Building was built in a mere 3 years. They weren't slow craftsmen working back then....

    The four times higher Empire State Building was completed in 18 months.

    How long did the much lower new museum take?

  15. #45
    Senior Member grekko's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Ged;355611]That's true but they just don't built like that anymore anywhere. The pyramids have lasted quite a bit too

    ---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 AM ----------



    Never finished either, all that sand delivered, river changed course and the cement factory couldn't find enough transport for the order..... now if they'd had a decent planning committee who knows what wonderful architecture they might have left for us.

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