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Thread: Shanghai-style plan

  1. #16
    Senior Member gregs dad's Avatar
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    What I don`t like about the grand schemes of the docks, is they will become off limits to ordinary folk who don`t reside or work there, similar to the Queens, and Waterloo with their private estates.

    Just a thought, what has happened to the coastal path planned a few years ago when we supposed
    to be able to walk the Mersey to Crosby from Otterspool to join up the Lancashire coastal walk.
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  2. #17
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    And they're not off limits now Joe?

    On the contrary, the likes of the Victoria clock tower will be brought back into the land of the living and shops and commercial businesses are part of the scheme - quite unlike the Waterloo 'private' estates which were very public when I walked down there to take some photos.

    Even if it were private (and it's not) it's private now and out of bounds for everybody and an eyesore to boot with wasted opportunities for regeneration and the income to the city that having people living and working there will bring to it - the knock on effect.
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  3. #18
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    And they're not off limits now Joe?

    On the contrary, the likes of the Victoria clock tower will be brought back into the land of the living and shops and commercial businesses are part of the scheme - quite unlike the Waterloo 'private' estates which were very public when I walked down there to take some photos.

    Even if it were private (and it's not) it's private now and out of bounds for everybody and an eyesore to boot with wasted opportunities for regeneration and the income to the city that having people living and working there will bring to it - the knock on effect.
    I would love to see the Victoria Tower rehabilitated where it is, or, if that is not possible, moved to Albert Dock where it can be seen and enjoyed. It is an unknown treasure of Liverpool's dockland.

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  4. #19
    Senior Member kevin's Avatar
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    I was in Shanghai in 1981 and saw a crowd outside a store - looking at a fridge in the window. It was clearly something they hadn't seen before. Thirty years on the city is dominated by neon signs.

    Took photographs of The Bund and about three years ago I showed them to a student from Shanghai - the change was so great she initially didn't recognise her own city.

  5. #20
    Member Peter McGurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    The Strand behind the Three Graces needs a lot doing to it to create animation... The inner motorway, that was partially built along there needs removing. It also divides the Albert Dock from the main bulk of the centre - a real dumb idea and one of the few parts of the 1960s Shankland plan to get built. What was teh city thinking of when they adopted the ideas of this lunatic?

    In its way, the Shankland plan was visionary (if dramatically flawed in retrospect). Coming out of post-war austerity, it represented a brave new world for the city and the investment perhaps something of a reward for the pasting taken in WWII.

    We know now that we can work in the sky and even live there to a degree but generally speaking and no matter how high the buildings are, we like our feet on the ground when we’re moving about and generally we prefer to walk rather than ride (as long as it’s not too far).

    So you’re right, The Strand should be full of ‘active frontage’ at street level and to be fair, council and the planners have always pushed for this.

    The micro-climate is poor if better than at the Pier Head itself but the biggest problem is lack of people - of course millions used to pass to and from the ferry or the bus station. Now, those are gone, or all but gone. Buildings on the 'Strand Wall' are empty and there’s plenty of room for restaurants and night life in less exposed parts of the city.

    Many cities have dealt with the problem of a big, wide road cutting off the waterfront - usually by making the waterfront worth getting to. There’s a lot more to happen at the Pier Head to make it worth a visit.

    Rebuilding the Goree Piazza would help reduce the width, slow traffic and help the pedestrian to cross but without a strong reason to go to the Pier Head or to The Strand itself they’re never going to be what they were, road or no road.

    ---------- Post added at 05:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    They get filled on a regular basis. Even in a World Heritage Site Buffer Zone. Disgusting....Liverpool could have done the same by laying a pipe in the river bed and taking sewage and waste to nearer Liverpool Bay.
    It is right that a lot can be done to keep the old docks as docks with some imagination and lateral thinking but it’s not always the right thing to do. The docks were built in a spirit of enterprise and new uses could and should be found likewise. Sometimes that means filling them in, albeit only with very strong reason.

    George’s Dock for example was both obsolete and something of an eyesore by all accounts and building in it has given the Liver Building the prominence that has helped make it so famous - a positive, forward-thinking and imaginative outcome.

    Putting them to work in one way or another seems the most sustainable and people will always be drawn to live by the water. The V&A Waterfront at Cape Town is a good example of an old port that has continued to work while the commercial port has moved on. The recent announcement of Pelican Tall Ship cruises from the Albert Dock complex is good news in a similar way.

    The waste treatment plant might seem negative but it has made huge improvements in the quality of the Mersey and as far I know doesn’t treat the Mersey itself or any waste in it from Manchester.

    In any event it would have been extraordinarily difficult to find anywhere else to put it North of Seaforth and it’s hard to see how untreated waste can be pumped into Liverpool Bay.

    ---------- Post added at 06:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    I would love to see the Victoria Tower rehabilitated where it is, or, if that is not possible, moved to Albert Dock where it can be seen and enjoyed. It is an unknown treasure of Liverpool's dockland.

    Chris
    I've often thought I'd like to live in it but the bus service probably isn't that good...

  6. #21
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    It is right that a lot can be done to keep the old docks as docks with some imagination and lateral thinking but it’s not always the right thing to do. The docks were built in a spirit of enterprise and new uses could and should be found likewise. Sometimes that means filling them in, albeit only with very strong reason.
    I can think of realigning quays and the likes as being acceptable, but there is no reason for mass filling, as per Bidston, Toxteth, Harrigton, Herculaneum, Trafalgar, etc. There is enough land around to put arenas on.

    Once the docks are gone they never come back.
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  7. #22
    Senior Member gregs dad's Avatar
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    Ged all Waterloo and the residential part of the Queens are still private, You cannot pass through the Wateloo dock gates unless you live there I was only there yesterday, there is even a gate security lodge.
    Over in Birkenhead you can still walk around the east float converted warehouses on the docks see pic


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  8. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    I was in Shanghai in 1981 and saw a crowd outside a store - looking at a fridge in the window. It was clearly something they hadn't seen before. Thirty years on the city is dominated by neon signs.

    Took photographs of The Bund and about three years ago I showed them to a student from Shanghai - the change was so great she initially didn't recognise her own city.
    I have been going to Shanghai regularly for the past 15 years ,
    Kevin the change has been so fast and dramatic that if you go back after six months whole swathes of the place are totally different. What they do while all the rebuilding is going on is plant any waste areas with trees and plants so there is plenty of greenery around. Also young rich Chinese, and there are plenty of them, are buying up the old merchant houses for homes , galleries and restaurants which mix well with the new builds.Yes the air quality is questionable but they plant the top edges of flyovers with green plants to clean the air.
    They all have fridges, watercoolers/heaters huge sound systems even in the tiniest apartments Maserati showrooms and high end designer stores abound . Ikea was like a football stadium with over 40 checkout tills all in action.Yes the old streets and neigbourhoods are fast disappearing but the new regeneration is happening real fast no dithering allowed.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    Best case, I would always want to keep the docks but it's not necessarily the filling of the docks that's a problem, it's what you put in them that matters.
    I think it is that they are allowed to fill that is the problem. That encourages the easy and quick fast buck route. A prime example is Kings Dock. The branches were filled in to put a large ugly arena and chara-banc park on it, that could have gone on the land side of Kings/Queens Dock. See:
    http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/watercity/KingsDock.html

    The in and out nature of the branches meant a wonderful waterscape to work around. Some architects would be in their element designing around that. About 25% of the branches could have been filled in at the river end to give more depth to the land there. What a missed a opportunity. Leave the docks as they are and design around them. It is quite simple. Then unique waterscaped districts emerge. The only positive docks filling was actually St.George's Dock, although by leaving the docks it could have been better. All other docks filling has been negative. Nothing better came out of it.

    The council should make it clear that there will be no more water space filling. The fact that they can means the developers use a guerrilla campaign to get their way. They wear the city down and get their way. If they can't do that they will not even consider filling in docks, no more than filling in the River Mersey.
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  10. #25
    Member Peter McGurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    I can think of realigning quays and the likes as being acceptable, but there is no reason for mass filling, as per Bidston, Toxteth, Harrigton, Herculaneum, Trafalgar, etc. There is enough land around to put arenas on.

    Once the docks are gone they never come back.
    Of course our first choice should be to keep the docks - always.

    We like water. We like to live by water. We like the reflections, the movement, the kid in us - the poetry of it. And in Liverpool's case, we appreciate the greatness by association - we live(d) in this great city that built this great thing.

    But none of those things were in the minds of those that built them. Profit and expediency more like.

    It is really, really sad when someone can only imagine two dull brick towers or a waste treatment plant in them but at least in the latter there's been a huge benefit to marine life in the river.

    It's a sign of the differing times that the 'great and glorious' Liver Buildings rose out of a filled-in dock then but we have a waste plant now.

    Best case, I would always want to keep the docks but it's not necessarily the filling of the docks that's a problem, it's what you put in them that matters.

    ---------- Post added at 10:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by gregs dad View Post
    Ged all Waterloo and the residential part of the Queens are still private, You cannot pass ...
    The Mersey Waterfront Regional Park docs are archived here: http://merseybasin.org.uk/archive/items/MBC143.html

    The footlink was or is intended to provide public access around the Mersey from New Brighton to Southport via Runcorn. The problem in this part of the world always was, how do you get past the working section of docklands at Seaforth?

    I think it was a nice idea but practically speaking you would need an Act of Parliament to create a public right of way.

    Having said that, being able to access all parts is bit of a planning mantra and rightly so. There's still a place for privacy (like, my front garden or even private gardens in a London square) but essentially 'gated' communities are difficult to justify.

    Problem is, they're very attractive to investors who might otherwise not want to live or put money into a 'dodgy' area. It would be interesting to know how that went in London's Docklands...

  11. #26
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    At Waterloo I walked right past the gate lodge, i'm not even sure anyone was in it. I went around to the dockside and there were even residents out enjoying a BBQ and some music. Perhaps it is usually out of bounds then, but so it is now anyway at Central docks and the Peel plans are certainly not for a gated community, quite the opposite.
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  12. #27
    Member Peter McGurk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    ... the Peel plans are certainly not for a gated community, quite the opposite.
    It seems so. In fact in relation to the question of public accessibility (and Mersey Waterfront Regional Park), Peel have this to say in the application:

    "Mersey Waterfront Regional Park - the Mersey Waterfront Regional Park initiative has two strands; the City to Sea strand harnesses the attractiveness of waterfront locations to attract businesses and other investors; the Pride in Promenades strand focuses on enhancing quality and accessibility of public realm. The Liverpool Waters masterplan will form an important component of the Mersey Waterfront Regional Park by enhancing access and the quality of the environment and by attracting new uses and users to waterfront."

    However the East Waterloo Dock is not part of the application, so...

  13. #28
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter McGurk View Post
    However the East Waterloo Dock is not part of the application, so...
    Peel want it filled in - another water space will then be gone. The city fathers are fools for not drawing the line on dock filling. IF they ddi then no application would come in with docks filling as a part of it.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  14. #29
    Senior Member az_gila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Peel want it filled in - another water space will then be gone. The city fathers are fools for not drawing the line on dock filling. IF they ddi then no application would come in with docks filling as a part of it.
    I'm all for preserving heritage, but what use is too many docks and no boats/ships to use them?

  15. #30
    Senior Member grekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
    I'm all for preserving heritage, but what use is too many docks and no boats/ships to use them?
    Want a few docks for Havasu City?


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