The Sinking of the Laconia

[captain kong]

As I have said before, the story was already written, it was in the records of UK, France, Germany and the US.
The story was again already written by the reports from the survivors over many years in various publications.
All Bleasdale had to do was to join the Official to the Personal and Voala, he has a story.
But he has to go and write some ficticious `story` about seafaring men, He has no idea about seafaring men.
I think Mr Bleasdale owes a great big appology to all Seafarers, what he wrote was certainly an insult to the integrity of Seafarers.
The way he portrays them was diabolical. They were shown as whimps and thieves, Did he have any evidence that a wine steward stole the money from the Casino???? Did he have any evidence that a Junior Third Officer was baby sitting a lady passengers baby, while she went to a dance, instead of being on watch in a war zone.? Did he have any evidence that a Junior Third Officer went into a passengers empty cabin and was caught rooting through her personal effects ?
What an insult to brave men who went to sea in those ships risking their lives to save the country, what a way to portray them.
40 TO 45,000 Merchant Seamen were killed at sea during the war and this is the way that Bleasdale portrays them, Diabolical
HE SHOULD BE MADE TO STAND UP IN FRONT OF A TV CAMERA AND MAKE A BIG APPOLOGY TO THE MERCHANT NAVY. Then arrest the man for slander. I hate Bleasdale for what he has done.

[gregs dad]

I thought the BBC2 half hour programme was miles better than the play. Stories by survivors
are always better than playrights,because they were there. I liked the story of the man buying the choc bar and the cashier putting his tuppence in the safe and locking it up.

[John Doh]

I fully agree with the comments made be Captain Kong.I was not at sea as long as C.K. However I also was on a few Cunard ships Passenger and cargo,but having watched part one for 1.hour I had seen enough the facts remain it was a bit distorted.When you write a drama based on fact for T.V.or a film,your skatting on thin ice.In defence of Alan Bleasdale Im sure he did some fact finding.But it just did not come across as one of his best.That said,may I say to J.D.I dont know what your little game is but I think your comments are nebulus and wooly(now look that up in the dictionary) Move on,get over it.Lets be adults and not like kids in the bloody playground.Billy Wizz.

Sorry if my comments seem 'nebulous' to you, but perhaps you've arrived after the storm clouds blew up. I've no 'little game' whatsoever! I was just flying a kite based on Alan's thesis that the story of the Laconia was one of the great untold war stories that could do with finally being aired at last. I'm not naturally a conspiracy theorist and I'm sure he isn't either. His point was that the story reflected badly on all the major players apart from the U-boat captain and that as a result we've all erased it from our collective memories. The fact that few Liverpool sailors have even responded to this Thread seems to bear this out, while CK's response seems to me to border on the paranoid... Dunno about catching the conscience of the King (King Kong?), but my comments, which I think were quite restrained considering the personal invective, certainly seem to have hit a nerve!

I have no preconceived agenda, apart from believing that Alan has been treated pretty shoddily both by the BBC and the usual suspects in the press in recent years. Some examples: yesterday's Metro carried a review by their 'TV critic' mocking Hilda the blonde girl's 'fake German accent' ( Franka Potente IS actually German for f****s sake!); while CK's complaint that the lifeboat scene was chaotic and would never have happened like that in real life was rather discredited by the collective testimony of all the survivors on last night's documentary, which entirely supported Bleasdale's version; again, CK rubbishes the verbal delivery of the 'Scouse lad' in the drama - yet there he was in the documentary nearly 70 years later using almost exactly the same accent/ dialect/ speech patterns as the actor. Whatever else Bleasdale may be accused of, not having a good ear for dialogue is definitely NOT a charge that can justifiably be levelled against him!

However, believe it or not, I am genuinely interested in reading all genuinely independent comments, whether positive or negative. With that in mind I should be grateful if you could expand on your comment "I had seen enough the facts remain it was a bit distorted", which is at best nebulous, but also not very well articulated.

---------- Post added 01-10-2011 at 12:40 AM ---------- Previous post was 01-09-2011 at 11:14 PM ----------

Just some of the responses to Neilpendo's U-Tube video that Kong said he wanted us to watch as representing 'the real thing' - In fact they all relate to the Bleasdale drama that he feels so upset about... Confusing, isn't it?:


Fascinating footage. The crew of the Liberator must have been seriously stupid if they were unable to realise what the situation was with all of the survivors plainly visible on deck

krugerfuchs 18 hours ago krugerfuchs 18 hours ago did your great uncle survive i just found that the captain had been on lancastria too


krugerfuchs 18 hours ago krugerfuchs 18 hours ago The BBC joint production was excellent. I wonder if the American Commander was ever questioned about giving the go ahead to bomb them ? a fascinating story well told

wellohmeeeeeee 1 day ago wellohmeeeeeee 1 day ago The two part series on the BBC was excellent! Oddly enough the subtitles did not bother me at all. Better to hear the Germans speaking German than English with a bad German accent. The closing statement brought tears to my eyes. Very moving story.

lincsposter 2 days ago lincsposter 2 days ago I ve just finished watching all of the BBC 2 Drama ' The Sinking of the Laconia' extremely moving, my Girlfriend was in tears. I will own it when released on DVD and read up about it as my Father has 100's of books on WW2.

species6339 2 days ago species6339 2 days ago Amazing footage. I've just finished watching Episode 1 of the BBC series. What a hugely significant incident in the history of naval warfare.

zebidee55 3 days ago zebidee55 3 days ago The americans were incredibly heartless to bomb it, theres no way they could have missed 200 people standing on the deck..

DefinitelyNotLying 3 days ago DefinitelyNotLying 3 days ago superb historical footage excellent well done for uploading for everyone to see

lz127graf 3 days ago lz127graf 3 days ago

[kevin]

JD - I'm an ex-sailor and the only reason I haven't commented is because I did so on MyLiverpool so didn't bother duplicating the post.
While I didn't spot as many errors as Kong I was constantly saying to my wife 'that wouldn't happen' throughout the programme.
However, unlike Kong, I did enjoy it. Through many, many previous experiences I've watched films conveying life at sea and I'm so used to them being universally bad I think I'm inured to it now. For me the key issue was a German acting in a humanitarian way and I was glad to see that - the views of so may are conditioned by the negative image we always get of Germans in wartime setting.

Regarding the comments about Kong maybe never having been in such a dangerous situation:
I've spent time with Brian and know quite a bit about his experiences at sea. He has 20 times the experience I've had, yet in 13 years I had 6 friends killed at sea and fought 16 potentially life threatening fires. If I've done that in my limited experience I dread to think what Brian has seen/done in his time.

[Ged]

It would seem then if anything, AB's researchers (whom I'm sure he would have entrusted much to) have let him down - ref uniform details/etiquette etc)

[kevin]

It would seem then if anything, AB's researchers (whom I'm sure he would have entrusted much to) have let him down - ref uniform details/etiquette etc)

The only time I've seen so much braid on junior officers is when I've been in a port the same time as the US Navy. They wear more gold than Fort Knox stores.

[captain kong]

This is the article that was on google
BY
Torpedoman



Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 116
Downloads: 2
Uploads: 0 "Saved By A U-Boat" - The Laconia Incident told from survivors

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Found this while googling. Very interesting and touching.


Part 1: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/s...a4262294.shtml

Part 2: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/s...a4262357.shtml

Part 3: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/s...a4262429.shtml


The following is a copy of a series of three articles that appeared in the WESTERN SUNDAY INDEPENDENT in March and April 1974.
This is George STONEMAN and his wife, Ena, of Plymouth. They are looking back thirty-one years to the day when a German U-boat saved their lives … after sinking the liner they were aboard.
The STONEMANS and their little daughter, June, spent five days drifting helplessly in a lifeboat in the tropical Atlantic and they were close to death. Suddenly, the U-507 rose to the surface. The crew fed them, gave them water and took Mrs. STONEMAN and June aboard.
It was one of the most amazing – and human – incidents of the last war and today the STONEMAN family tells their story for the first time in the first of a three-part series.


PART ONE
SAVED BY A U-BOAT!


Devon-bound. Then suddenly, the STONEMANS were adrift in a lifeboat in mid-Atlantic.


On a still, hot tropical night in September, 1942, the Cunard liner ‘Laconia’ was steaming at speed 260 miles north of Ascension Island in the Atlantic.
Behind her, Japanese armies looted and burned their way across the Pacific.
PACKED
Her 20,000 tons dead weight was packed, as it had never been before. The ship’s company was estimated at between 4,000 and 5,000 people, mostly the wives and families of British servicemen and a motley crew of soldiers, seamen and airmen.
There were also some 1,800 Italian prisoners of war – a fact that had a great deal to do with the incredible events that followed.
Among the people cramming themselves into every available nook and cranny of the ship was a Plymouth family, R.A.F. Sergeant STONEMAN and his wife, Ena and their five-year-old daughter, June.

TORPEDO

The family had been reunited at Durban in South Africa, after nightmare months of separation during which Mrs. STONEMAN and June had been hustled from the dying port of Singapore and George had been helping the R.A.F. to destroy vital installations in the South Pacific.
At 8.10pm on September 12th, in deep tropical darkness all of that was changed.
A torpedo from a German U-boat – one of a major pack – struck the ship below the waterline as she moved along at her maximum speed of twenty knots.
The big liner shuddered mightily and was immediately plunged into darkness. In less than fifteen minutes she had developed a sixty-degree list to port and within thirty minutes she had sunk.
It was never properly established how many people died. The figure was put at between two and three thousand. It was one of the major sea disasters of the war.
The STONEMAN family survived the explosion and rapid destruction of the liner and ended up in a lifeboat with forty-seven other men, women and children.
TOWED
They were more than 1,000 miles from the nearest land, some of them were injured, the lifeboat’s supplies had been contaminated – and they had no idea of their exact position.
During the six days that followed the sinking of the ‘Laconia’ came one of the most famous incidents of the war as:
· The survivors were picked up by the U-boat pack itself.
· Little June STONEMAN and her mum spent a strange – and hilarious – night aboard an enemy submarine along with over one hundred other people.
· One of the U-boats towed the drifting lifeboats for hundreds of miles to safety.
· The Allies decided to bomb the submarines which had surfaced to save the shipwreck victims.
A three-part series on the stoneman FAMILY starts today.
The submarine commanders were ordered to “ditch” their survivors at the earliest moment and dive for safety.
Luckily for the hundreds of helpless men, women and children, the U-boats had delivered them, to a designated spot – and the Vichy French cruiser, ‘Gloire’ was en route to pick them up from Casablanca.
The survivors, in about eleven lifeboats were told to keep together … they would not have long to wait.
That same day the old French cruiser picked them up and, after a refuelling stop at Dakar, delivered them to Casablanca.
The survivors thought they were as good as home, but in many ways they were just beginning an ordeal that in many ways was worse than the one they had endured.
ROTTEN
“The French were rotten,” said Mrs. STONEMAN. “That’s the only word to describe them. We ended up thinking of THEM as our enemies and not the Germans. They treated us like animals most of the time.”
On the journey to Casablanca the men were separated from the women and children and spent most of the time locked up in steel holds that rapidly became like pressure cookers.
Mr. STONEMAN said: “They really treated us rough and that journey was one of the worst I made in my life. We had little food and hardly any water.”
The STONEMANS were interned in a camp at a place called Sidi El Ayachia, an insect-infested group of mud huts on the edge of the desert.
All Mrs. STONEMAN can remember were countless days of terrible food, little water and killing heat.
They lived on lentils and dried peas mostly boiled into a kind of soup.
Once a day they were given a square of hard bread and a cup of strong coffee.
“It’s quite impossible for me to describe the filth of that place,” she said. “We were infested with lice and fleas and almost everybody suffered almost permanently from dysentery.”
“We were a burden to the French and they made it quite clear that they hated us. If it hadn’t been for the kindness of some of the missionaries, life would have been unbearable.
The STONEMANS stayed in the camp for almost two months and they were finally released following the American invasion of North Africa.
Mrs. STONEMAN and June were the first to go. They went by hospital ship to Gibraltar and from there to Liverpool. Husband, George, followed a few days later.
They were finally re-united and arrived back in Plymouth just before Christmas, 1942.
The years have not blurred Mrs. STONEMAN’s memory, although she is inclined to forget the bad times – the first terrifying days after the liner’s sinking and the weeks in the French prison camp.

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So this describes what happened to the survivors and their harsh treatment by the French.
Why did Bleasdale not portray these events. The story was only half told, even then it was a amatuerish attempt.
Bleasdale said it was a little known story, I knew of this story many many years ago.
I still think he insulted Merchant Seamen in war, these guys were the bravest of the brave, when he shows a steward stealing money and a whimp of a Junior Third Officer baby sitting for a passenger instead of being on Watch in a war zone., and also entering a passengers cabin and rooting through her belongings while she is out. These are sackable offences, where did he get those stupid ideas from. again totally unbelievable.
Bleasdale should give an appology to all Seamen over that.

[John Doh]

It would seem then if anything, AB's researchers (whom I'm sure he would have entrusted much to) have let him down - ref uniform details/etiquette etc)

I agree that Alan has probably been let down by whoever researched the uniform/ technical side of things, but I can assure you that he definitely did all his own research on the historical/ political area. As far as I know, he's not been faulted on that. Also, contrary to much of the kind of "That wouldn't have happened in reality" comment that we've seen here, the version of events as shown in Bleasdale's film was borne out by the testimony of the survivors shown in the documentary the following day, just one example being the chaos during the launching of the lifeboats. Kong was keen that we watched that as being the 'real thing', yet hasn't attempted to explain what must have been to him a rather surprising degree of agreement.

[captain kong]

As I said in one of my first mails was that Bleasdale should have had a Seafaring man as an advisor. If you are writing about a seafaring event then have Seafarers advising the events. Then he could have had a credible story to tell.
If he listened to passengers and other survivors then why did he not consider taking professional advice instead making a fool of himself by creating stupid and unreal characters who insult the integrity of Seafarers.

As I have said before, the story was already written by the Official Records of various nations involved and also the story written by the survivors over many years since WW2.

I bet anyone, there was no record in his research of a wine steward stealing money and of a Navigation Officer baby sitting while he should have been on Watch in a war zone and then on another occaision entering a lady passengers cabin while she was out and rooting through her personal effects.
Ask him where he found that information.
It was an easy thing to do, anyone could have done it, All he had to do was to join up the survivors stories instead of maliciously creating ficticious characters who insulted everyones intelligence.
I still think he should give his appologies to all the Seafaring men who were in WW2. He gave the public the impression of Seafarers being thieves and whimps.

Also this is from my previous post, repeated again........................

So this describes what happened to the survivors and their harsh treatment by the French.
Why did Bleasdale not portray these events. The story was only half told, even then it was a amatuerish attempt.
Bleasdale said it was a little known story, I knew of this story many many years ago.
I still think he insulted Merchant Seamen in war, these guys were the bravest of the brave, when he shows a steward stealing money and a whimp of a Junior Third Officer baby sitting for a passenger instead of being on Watch in a war zone., and also entering a passengers cabin and rooting through her belongings while she is out. These are sackable offences, where did he get those stupid ideas from. again totally unbelievable.
Bleasdale should give an appology to all Seamen over that.
All in All it was a waste of three hours TV

Also the Labour Party should also appologise for stealing the money France paid in compensation to seamen, passengers and other POWs of France for the diabolical harsh treatment in North and West Africa. No one got a penny, the Labour Government kept it all.

[Oudeis]

CK, on your last point. I remember much the same thing happened with Abervan.

[John Doh]

Yep - a bit of a scandal that! But to be fair, Ron Davies did try to put things right... But sadly, I bet he'll be remembered mainly by the rest of us for his 'moment of madness' on Clapham Common. It's a mad world, my masters!

[Ernie]

We have a member in our club who was on the Laconia he is 91. Our chairman tried to get in touch with the BBC to no avail. Alehouse knows the club LRMS. Ernie.

[Billy Wizz]

Hi Ernie.The person you mentioned sits on the Vindy Boys table at Eldonians club.He is infact 89.Frank Holden.Was shipwrecked (torpedoed) twice.You could not wish to meet a nicer person.Gentleman of the old school.Walks unaided and if anything this man with the benefit of hindsite might have been a better choice for first hand experiance than some of the reserchers who were used by the program makers.I will not make any more comments on this thread.Billy Wizz.

[The Dog]

There are several survivors of the Laconia sinking in the Liverpool Retired Merchant Seafarers club at the Eldonian Village Hall in Burlington Street. For 9 months we tried to get in touch with Mr Bleasdale, his production company and BBC2 but did not even get a reply or acknowledgement. One was amongst the last to leave the ship and was injured in doing so. He was taken onboard the u-boat and his wounds treated. On being put back into the lifeboat he was given bread water and cigarettes "for Kamaraden." An Italian survivor asked for cigarettes and was contemptiously pushed aside by the German who said "no for Zeeman." The captain had previously commanded the Lancastria when she was lost with an estimated 7,000 dead. The authorities tried to unfairly tried to blame him for the tragedy. The last man to see him before the ship went down said that as he waited on the boatdeck he heard a shot from the captains cabin.
Captain Kong is correct in writing that the story is well documented in published records and books. After the Franconia it is probably the best known story of the Battle of the Atlantic. Between 1950 and 1970 the story would be told on every ship on every voyage, often by a survivor. Even today to say the story is forgotten is rediculous.
There are even greater tragedies that are not known because the details have been supressed by government. The papers on the Lancastria are embargoed beyond 2040, why/ Who knows. A final beef, Cunard recruited their crews from the Burlington Street Scotland road area of Vauxhall and the vast majority of Laconia's ratings came from there, so why are there so few Liverpool accents to be heard on screen in these movies or ducumentries, this programme and the Titanic movies are examples Can they not undestand us.

For a producer with the BBC's record of getting costume drama detals right this show was a disgrace, it is as if they hired the costumes from a fancy dress shop

Regarding the "Scouse Lads" accent being authentic John Dho says tis was proved by his appearing on the follow up interviews with survivors broadcast on BBC the following night. Well as far as I saw in the documentry the "Scouse Lad" was identified as Billy Hardacre. Billy was a famous Liverpool Boxer and ships fireman. Later he was forman of the ship painting contractor British Paints and then his own business. He died some years ago so could not have been interviewed last week by the BBC. His family are still pominent in the Scotland Road area of Liverpool where they run the best funeral service in the town. His son, also Billy, is managing director of the undertaking business and another son John, is the director of Hardacre and Smiths the ship painting contractors in Cammell Lairds.

Final piont John Dho says few Liverpool seamen have commented on the documentry. As far as I can establish all the objections have come from Liverpool Seamen, it is after all Yo Liverpool

[brian daley]

Executed in gouache on paper,this study by Graham Coton shows the US B24 Liberator attempting to bomb the U-156 as she towed the lifeboats full of survivors from the liner Laconia ,which she had recently sunk.One can imagine the horror that must have been felt by those survivors,both on the U-Boat and in the lifeboats,as they witnessed the American attempts to kill them.This is an old artwork,devoid of political comment and so much more powerful because of it.
BrianD