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Thread: Walton Gaol

  1. #1
    Senior Member Colin Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Default Walton Gaol

    Walton Gaol 1974Walton Gaol 1930If a gaol was to be built on your street, you would probably care little for the architecture – you would just want to move to another place. Prisons stir up deep emotions and it is unlikely that one would be built in the heart of a residential community. Nevertheless, there [...]

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    Martin hmtmaj's Avatar
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    great pics them Colin.
    What was there befor ethe prison ?
    probably just farm land !
    Started the Old Swan Website:

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    Senior Member wsteve55's Avatar
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    Good pic's Colin! Seeing that you are in "Prison" mode,I just wondered if you have ever come across any pic's,or info' on Liverpool city prison,which was in Great Howard st? This preceded Walton prison,and apparently,was the first purpose built prison,in the world?? It was demolished to make way for rail goods depot/sidings,and was of a radial style construction.There is a Herdman print of the prison,that I've seen,but wether it's demise was before the advent of photography,I dont know!

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    Smurf Member scouse smurf's Avatar
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    Nice to see google are above the law.... Walton Prison

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    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    And a lot of other photographers Smurfy. Such piffle. I've got pics of it on my site, the LRO have pics - who doesn't if they really want one. Like that time it was said you couldn't photograph in Lime st station yet there's loads of people getting the Ken Dodd/Bessie Braddock statue and like those who said no photographing in the Walker or Museum - the guards move out of the way for me - .
    www.inacityliving.piczo.com/

    Updated weekly with old and new pics.

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    Senior Member Colin Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Copyright law is a complex area but legally if a statue is in a public place (i.e. in the street) it is not subject to copyright (it is in the public realm - like a building). However, if it is on private land (i.e Lime Street Station/Walker Art Gallery), copyright does apply and it is a matter for the landowner and the artist as to whether they wish to control access to photographers. In most cases, this is not pursued - but I was caught out at the International Garden Festival in 1984 when I published postcards of all the attractions, including the sculptures. I received two solicitors' letters demanding compensation because artists they represent had their work in view in two postcards. It was settled amicably but the point was that the Garden Festival was not a public place and there was no automatic freedom to publish views without agreement from all parties.

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    Senior Member fortinian's Avatar
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    re: The Gaol on Great Howard Street

    As you probably know, Liverpools first Gaol was Liverpool Tower. The tower (shown in the picture below) was built largely in the 15th century and by the mid-1700s was in such a bad state that prisoners frequently escaped. There is still a small alleyway, next to St Nicholas church called Prison Weint.



    In 1774 the tower was condemned and plans were stared to build a new 'modern' gaol. It was to be based on Newgate prison in London and one of the consultants on the scheme was John Howard - a great prison reformer who helped to make prison conditions better right across the UK. His name is commemorated in Liverpool in the name of the street that was built for the new gaol - Great Howard Street. From Wikimedia Commons

    In 1793 the gaol was still not finished but 4000 french POWs were incarcerated there It wasn't until 1811 that it was finally used for prisoners of the city. The prison was designed with a cenral block with six radiating wings. This style was called the 'seperate-system' and was (according to Wikipedia) pioneered at the Eastern State Penitentiary, Pennsylvania USA in 1829. (shown below) From Wikimedia Commons

    Here is a drawing of Great Howard Street from by WG Herdman in 1856.
    From BM Collection

    Its claim for being the 'first purpose built prison' sounds rather grand, but it is certainly an earlier example of the 'separate-system' prison than the Eastern State Pen and may be the first of that type.

    I doubt there is a photo of it, looking at my maps from about 1865 it seems to have gone by then and Kirkdale Prison has been built.

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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Nice work fortinian,

    Attached - the 1848 OS map, although I expect this is much later, as new railway lines and major alternations were included in 1864. I've pasted the prison [from an earlier map] onto this one for context. The entrance was directly opposite Neptune Street.

    Not much evidence of the prison today except for the railway line to exchange station which had to detour around the prison when it was originally laid out. Great Howard Street Goods Station was later built on the site.



    Also, Ackerman's 1847 view [copied from Liverpool - A People's History] originally sourced from LRO.

    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."... ... ... Mark Twain.

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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Did anyone spot the mistake on the coloured image above?
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."... ... ... Mark Twain.

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    Senior Member wsteve55's Avatar
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    Thanks for the pic's, and info', Fortinian,and Dazza! I Noticed the interesting difference in design, from a square radial type,to an octagonal one,and wonder which one is true?

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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    The square one is 'Eastern State Penitentiary, Pennsylvania USA' which as fortinian says pioneered the use of cell blocks in radial arms.

    The mistake in the image is far more basic. The World Cup is a clue?
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."... ... ... Mark Twain.

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    Senior Member robbo176's Avatar
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    I've got it ....it says goal instead of gaol haha!!!
    If you can't dazzle them with brilliance,baffle them with bull

    http://www.bmycharity.com/laurenrobinson please give generously to childrens cancer charity Clic sergent

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    Senior Member wsteve55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dazza View Post
    The square one is 'Eastern State Penitentiary, Pennsylvania USA' which as fortinian says pioneered the use of cell blocks in radial arms.

    The mistake in the image is far more basic. The World Cup is a clue?
    My mistake,I was thinking they were both the same.(but different)

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    Smurf Member scouse smurf's Avatar
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    I assume it was pretty much opposite the costco car park ?

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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Well done Mandy spot on.

    A Victorian typo, and an own gaol for the illustrator.
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."... ... ... Mark Twain.

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