Derby Square - Old Vaults

[dazza]

1) Photograph of a series of old vaults at Derby Square, 04/11/1903. On the other side of the fence, there is a tram whose destination is Castle Street, Breckfield Road and Seaforth. On the side of the tram there is an advertisement for Kardomah Tea.

2) A photograph of a series of old vaults at Derby Square, 04/11/1903. On the fence around the area there are some advertisments, advertising the Daily Mirror and Quaker Oats.

3) A photograph a series of old vaults at Derby Square, 04/11/1903.

Courtesy of LRO ref: 352 ENG/2/502, 505 & 506 [can be viewed on the online archive].

[dazza]

The photographs of the vaults [above] are dated 4th Nov. 1903

The Monument to Queen Victoria, Derby Square. The foundation stone was laid Sat. 11th October 1902 and the statue was unveiled, Thurs. 27th September 1906.

The vaults, whereabout in Derby Square though? I don't know, maybe some clues below?

Photo 1) A tram car can be seen over the fence in. And also the very faint shadow of some windows can be seen beyond that. ie: The tram tracks pass between the building, in the distance, and the vaults. This could be either the centre, or somewhere on Preesons Row?

Photo 2) shows a neighbouring property, with sash window above ground, so this may rule out it being in the centre?

[Ged]

Great them. Any connection to the castle perhaps? Or just cellars of property that was once on Derby Square?

[robbo176]

would that be where the gents toilets where built?

[Ged]

would that be where the gents toilets where built?

Oh aye - didn't know you'd been down there?????

[robbo176]

Oh aye - didn't know you'd been down there?????

I haven't

[dazza]

would that be where the gents toilets where built?

I'll answer Mandy first.

Male Conveniences. Well, the ladies don't get much opportunity to see these things in real life, so here goes . I don't think so - the vaults must be located elsewhere? One reason I think that, is that the loo's were cylindrical, and not square in plan like the vaults.

1) Photograph, 25/07/1906, of the ceiling of the public conveniences that were built underground in Derby Square. This shows the domed ceiling which protrudes above the ground. The street running behind the public conveniences is Preesons Row, and the street running off that, Redcress Street.

2) Photograph, 21/11/1904, of the urinals in the public convenience in Derby Square. The walls are tiled and the floor has a mosaic covering.


Courtesy of LRO ref: 352 ENG/2/972 & 636 [can be viewed on the online archive].

[robbo176]

I'll answer you first Mandy.

Male Conveniences. Well, the ladies don't get much opportunity to see these things in real life, so here goes . I don't think so - the vaults must be located elsewhere? One reason is that the loo's were cylindrical and not square in plan as the vaults were. Also one of the photo's is dated 1904, 2 years before the vaults were photographed in the OP.


1) Photograph, 25/07/1906, of the ceiling of the public conveniences that were built underground in Derby Square. This shows the domed ceiling which protrudes above the ground. People are walking along the street. The street running behind the public conveniences is likely to be Preesons Row, and the street running off that, Redcress Street.

2) Photograph, 21/11/1904, of the urinals in the public convenience in Derby Square. The walls are tiled and the floor has a mosaic covering.


Courtesy of LRO ref: 352 ENG/2/972 & 636 [can be viewed on the online archive].

thanks Dazza

[dazza]

Great them. Any connection to the castle perhaps? Or just cellars of property that was once on Derby Square?

Sorry Ged? I was hoping one of you guys might know something? Photo 2) in the OP has what looks like a neighbouring building with a sash window, so that would rule out the middle of Derby Square, unfortunately.

There's another photo in the series that may help determine the location: 352 ENG/2/503. I'll check it out when I'm next at the LRO.

[Quentin_Sharples]

I'm surprised nobody got this.
The vaults must be what was left of St George's Church.
The church was demolished in 1899, but apparently not the basement.
As Robbo says there were (still are?) toilets under the Victoria Memorial, so further excavation was required.

[pablo42]

Nice photos guys. I remember the gents toilets, I used to use them. We used to get the number 10 there up to Kensington. Go to Holt road and pop into Woolies and look at the toys.

[lindac8941]

The pics are great, but I am trying to get my head around, where the gents toilets where?

[dazza]

I'm surprised nobody got this.
The vaults must be what was left of St George's Church.
The church was demolished in 1899, but apparently not the basement.
As Robbo says there were (still are?) toilets under the Victoria Memorial, so further excavation was required.

Thanks QS, this was my first thought also. But I'm less sure now?

Firstly, St. George's church had a crypt, but it was more of less level with current pavement. The first church was raised, and sat on an arched podium [containing the crypt], the church floor was actually built one storey higher than generally assumed. This was accessed front and back by a series of stairs. The 2nd rebuild scrapped the arches, but the levels would be the same.

My guess is that the original architect didn't want to excavate down into the castle bedrock which the church nave was over, and just built the crypt off the bedrock, creating an artificial base/ podium for the church to sit on. The tower has we all know was foolishly sited over the original castle ditch, and experienced settlement problems later on, and had to be replaced.

The toilets. The 1906 OS map of Derby Square shows the gents loos outside of Queen Vic. memorial [below].

So, where does that leave us? Photo 2) in the OP shows a neighbouring building with sash window? St George's church was only demolished 4 years before this photo.? And I doubt they built on the site in those few years? Perhaps the vaults belong to a property in Preesons Row?

Any ideas?

[Quentin_Sharples]

The pics are great, but I am trying to get my head around, where the gents toilets where?

The Ladies were directly under the Victoria Memorial, while the Gents were behind.

[dazza]

The Ladies were directly under the Victoria Memorial, while the Gents were behind.

QS, there's no entry stairs shown for the Ladies around the memorial? And no skylights etc., which you'd expect to see. I wondering whether the ladies loo's were above ground, before they errected the monument over the site?

There's no mention of Ladies loo's being incorporated Public Sculpture of Liverpool.