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Thread: Mass Grave in Old Swan

  1. #16
    PhilipG
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    The graves wouldn't have come from St John's Church during the digging of the foundations for St George's Hall.
    St George's Hall was built on the site of the original Infirmary.
    St John's Church was much further back as this map of 1836 shows.
    The graveyard of St John's became St John's Gardens.

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    It's also unlikely that they were graves moved from other churches.
    Municipal Cemeteries were created simply because graveyards in churches became full and were then closed for further burials.
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  2. #17
    Junior Member Fergie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Does anyone remember that when they were demolishing the opposite side of St. Oswalds street, they came across a mass grave site. My mate lived in Elm's House Road so I was forever getting the number 10 in Norton Street. I was born in Holly Street, the flats similar to Eldon Grove and later moved to Gerard Gardens when Holly Street had to make way for the new St. Anne Street Police station. I loved that community and era - no playstations or X boxes, no interacting via a joystick, screen or keyboard - proper face to face games. Does anyone have any photos of Rose Hill Police station which preceded St. Anne Street station?
    Try the scottie press online go to the archives and click on to St Joesephs also try the Liverpool EX Pats on the Liverpool Echo a member called Rookie was a ex Policeman at Rose Hill Police Station in the 50s and 60s.
    Peter

  3. #18
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    Yes, I am a regular contributor to the scottie press. Regarding lots of Irish people dying here after making it from the famine. It is known that over 2,300 are buried in the grounds and crypt of St. Anthony's on Scotland Road so that did actually happen.

  4. #19
    scouserdave
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    Hiya Ged,
    are you the Gerrard Garden lad who took all the Liverpool pics in the 70s/80s? Top man I've got one of your DVDs. Say hi to Scottie Press' Ron Formby for me. We usually meet up at the Friends of Liverpool Monuments meetings, but I haven't seen him for a while.

  5. #20
    Senior Member christy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    Most who died in Liverpool died of Typus, etc. The overcrowded unsanitary conditions caused disease. The vast number of Irish strained the water services. Most Irish left Liverpool for Manchester, London, America, etc.
    True about typhus, dysentry, cholera etc but where did you get the info about most leaving for Manchester and London?

  6. #21
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    "This discovery was simply beyond the boundary of that graveyard, extending much further than was realised - thousands more bodies."

    OK they were clearing a graveyard and found 3,500 coffins that extended further than the graveyard. No foul play is suspected.

    Questions:

    1. Why were 3.5K coffins stacked 15 high (if Sleman is right of course, and
    he does delve into fantacy)?

    2. This is a mass buried all at once. Why?

    Could have been relocation of bodies from other graveyards. St.Georges' Hall and St.John's Church. The graveyard of the church is now the gardens of the hall and the graveyard was cleared. Where did the bodies go?
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  7. #22
    Still alive snappel's Avatar
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    I'm sure I read somewhere that they were moved somewhere else. Can't remember now...

  8. #23
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by christy View Post
    True about typhus, dysentry, cholera etc but where did you get the info about most leaving for Manchester and London?
    In 1850 more people born in Ireland were living in Manchester and London than Liverpool. One of the Liverpool history sites.

    1.3 million Irish went through Clarence Dock gates. The vast majority of them left Liverpool sharpish. Liverpool, which "officially" was a town at the time could not support them. So, they had to go elsewhere.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  9. #24
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snappel View Post
    I'm sure I read somewhere that they were moved somewhere else. Can't remember now...
    What? Where?
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


    Giving Liverpool a full Metro - CLICK
    Rapid-transit rail: Everton, Liverpool & Arena - CLICK

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  10. #25
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    Hello ScouseDave. Aye, it is I. Your Liverpool pictorial site is tops. Did you manage to attend one of the 'Gardens of Stone' screenings at FACT. It was a full day event with 3 consequetive screenings and over 100 people were sadly turned away at the desk or by phone so there was another one a few months later which some of the Liverpool pop groups (whose music is featured) attended - The Farm, The Christians, Wah etc...

    There will be other screenings scheduled and we'll let this forum know.

  11. #26
    theninesisters
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    I'm quite sure that I read (possibly Slemen) that the graves were transfared from St John's Church to the site in Old Swan.

    St John's was behind St George's Hall and would have been the correct location for the buriel's to be removed.

    You would need to look in to the erection of St George's Hall from early pictures and see whether there were any 'extra buildings' covering the graveyard so they were removed.
    Last edited by theninesisters; 03-23-2007 at 07:59 PM.

  12. #27
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jona76 View Post
    I'm quite sure that I read (possibly Slemen) that the graves were transfared from St John's Church to the site in Old Swan.

    St John's was behind St George's Hall and would have been the correct location for the buriel's to be removed.

    You would need to look in to the erection of St George's Hall from early pictures and see whether there were any 'extra buildings' covering the graveyard so they were removed.

    See my last post (with the map).
    St John's Graveyard was on the other side of St John's Church from where St George's Hall was built.
    St John's Church closed in 1898.
    The graveyard was converted into St John's Gardens, which opened in 1904, and I believe that the graves are still there.

    The foundation stone of St George's Hall was laid in 1838, and the building was completed in 1854.
    Some of the coffins in Old Swan were dated 1859, so there is no way they came from the site of St George's Hall.

    I must admit I haven't read many of Slemen's books, but he doesn't seem to know his history.

    I still think Old Swan was a burial ground for plague victims.
    Last edited by PhilipG; 12-13-2006 at 02:03 PM.

  13. #28
    theninesisters
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    How do you know the coffins were dated? (can you provide a source?)

    This is what Slemen says:

    The demolition men were ordered to leave the site immediately and a cordon of secrecy was thrown around the area. However, the press learned of the unearthed coffin and reporters were amazed to discover that an phenomenal 3,561 coffins were buried beneath that street in Old Swan. The coffins were all unmarked and stacked sixteen feet deep. This site had never been a graveyard, and no one could determine just why thousands of people had been buried there. Stranger still, all the bodies were neatly grouped according to their ages, which ranged from children of ten or 12 to adults in their twenties and thirties. All the older skeletons had intact sets of teeth, which indicates that they were fairly young when they died. But just how the people in the mass grave had died was never established, but there were grisly rumours that their hearts had been removed. These peculiar claims were backed up by several people who had viewed the skeletons and noted that their breastbones had been smashed or removed, perhaps to retrieve the hearts of the corpses.

    Archaeologists in London read of the astounding mass grave in Liverpool and immediately journeyed to the city to investigate, but for some mysterious reason, Liverpool City Council had the three thousand corpses cremated. When the archaeologists from London arrived in Liverpool, they were horrified to learn that the thousands of corpses had been exhumed and cremated. The ashes were then reburied in a special container. The authorities did all of this under a cloak of secrecy.

    The angry and disappointed archaeologists branded the council as philistines and examined the site of the mass-burial pit. The site was definitely not a plague pit from the 15th century, and despite a thorough search of local historical records, the identities of the bodies could not be found. One investigator from the British Museum thought the mass burial had taken place in the early 1700s but couldn't be certain.

    The strange hooded monk in black was seen again throughout the years, and continues to be seen in the vicinity of Broad Green Lane to this day. A group of mediums in the mid 1990s who investigated the bizarre case said they definitely felt the strong presence of an evil discarnate being in the neighbourhood where the mass grave was unearthed. One of the mediums said he felt as if multiple sacrifices to Satan had been carried out by Devil-worshipping monks in the locality of Old Swan centuries ago. He also hinted that there were three other sites of mass graves in Liverpool, and that the locations of these sites would form a huge cross facing the west. Traditional Christian churches face the east, where the sun rises, but the west has always been revered by followers of Satan.

    It has since come to light that there are more mass graves in Liverpool, and yes, they do form a somewhat crude cross that faces the west. One of these graves was uncovered in the 1960s in Cobden Street in the Everton district. The Everton grave contained only three hundred bodies, but they too were grouped according to their age, and no one can determine when or why they were buried there. The other two mass graves are still being investigated and their locations are being kept secret.

  14. #29
    scouserdave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    Hello ScouseDave. Aye, it is I. Your Liverpool pictorial site is tops. Did you manage to attend one of the 'Gardens of Stone' screenings at FACT. It was a full day event with 3 consequetive screenings and over 100 people were sadly turned away at the desk or by phone so there was another one a few months later which some of the Liverpool pop groups (whose music is featured) attended - The Farm, The Christians, Wah etc...

    There will be other screenings scheduled and we'll let this forum know.
    Alright Ged, no never got the chance to get to the screenings which was a pity. BTW, just playing your Gerard Gardens Holy Cross DVD again. You've got a cracking eye for a Liverpool pic mate
    Love the soundtrack too.

  15. #30
    Gnomie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ged View Post
    I wonder if they may have been plague victims like those buried in Addison Street which was formerly called Sickmans lane because of it?

    Not sure on this Ged but im sure i read somewhere that Sickmans lane was where the Death Sheds where located?

    By the way its good to see you here Ged(its Tony Andalucia)

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