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Thread: Dingle Glen in Old Photos

  1. #16
    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Hi Chris,

    Thanks for your comments, and the update on the statue.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    Excellent photographs and information here, Darren. I have been interested in the matter of Dingle Dell ever since I read Griffiths' book in the 1960's, and have also, as a poet myself, studied William Roscoe's poems.

    In terms of the question about the statue note the following appeal by Dr Clemency Fisher of the Museum of Liverpool "Guest blog: Lost sculptures of Liverpool" dated (coincidentally!) November 13, 2009, at http://blogs.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/pooloflife/:

    "Lost: Has anyone seen a marble lady with her foot on a water pot?

    "William Roscoe (1753-1831), who could quite possibly be said to have founded culture in Liverpool, was a man with many hats - politician, solicitor, booklover, supporter of the arts, founder of the now sadly defunct Liverpool Botanic Garden, and poet. He lived in several different houses in central and south Liverpool, one being The Elms, which was on the dog-leg between Park Road and Aigburth Road (the road next to where it stood still bears this name).

    "Much of Roscoe's poetry was published, and many people will know The Butterfly's Ball. One of Roscoe's other most important poems was The Nymph of the Dingle, written in about 1790. From this we get a wonderful vision of the Dingle Stream, which used to run down Park Road and then through the Dingle down to the Mersey, as it looked before it was culverted.

    "'Stranger, that with careless feet, / wanderest near this green retreat, / where, through gently bending slopes, / soft the distant prospect opes: / Where the fern in fringed pride / decks the lonely valley's side / where the linnet chirps his song, / flitting as thou tread'st along .... Once a naiad rolled her flood'.



    [Full version of poem below]

    "The sculptor Benjamin Spence's marble Psyche at the well used to be in a cupola next to the Dingle Stream, to represent Roscoe's poem. She stood there for many years, demurely holding her water pot. We are not sure whether this sculpture is the same as the one that used to be in the Gladstone Conservatory in Stanley Park, or the statue now in the sculpture gallery at the Walker Art Gallery, or whether they were all exact copies of each other.

    "Another marble lady naiad, in this case posed demurely with her foot on her water pot, used to stand in the Turner Home, the gothic mansion also on the dog-leg. This statue has been missing since the second world war, although the plinth is still there. This seems to be the version of the Nymph of the Dingle which Roscoe had copied as an illustration for the cover of his published poem.

    "Does anyone know where this Turner Home sculpture is now, or what happened to it, or does anyone remember it being there, or have a photograph? Does anyone know anything about Psyche at the well and her copies? Please let us know!

    "We need this information for a display on Toxteth Deer Park, for the History Detectives section at the new Museum of Liverpool. Please contact me:
    clem.fisher@liverpoolmuseums.org.uk."

    Chris
    Clem Fisher [quoted above] mentions The Lady of the Dingle, as being one of three possible statues:

    1. The one that used to be at "Gladstone Conservatory in Stanley Park"
    2. The "statue now in the sculpture gallery at the Walker Art Gallery", which could be the same statue above, or a similar/ identical copy to it.
    3. The statue Robert Griffiths decribed as "another marble lady naiad, in this case posed demurely with her foot on her water pot, used to stand in the Turner Home"

    According to Robert Griffiths [writing in 1907] '"The Lady of The Dingle" which stood in an old alcove on the head of the promontory overlooking the Mersey. This figure stood for many years under the trees in the glen itself, and was finally moved to the grounds of the Turner Memorial Home...The figure is of plaster, and probably the work of William [or Benjamin?] Spence...which some vandel has damaged in a deplorable manner, represents a naiad sleeping, her empty urn beneath her foot...'

    Robert Griffiths credits 3. [above] as being the correct one, situated in the grounds of Turner M. Home, although being constructed of 'plaster' and already 'damaged' the chances of finding it intact today would be remote? Who knows - it may turn up somewhere?


    Images of the two statue designs. The RH one being favourite.

    Both images from The History of the Royal and Ancient Park of Toxeth Liverpool, by Robert Griffiths.

  2. #17
    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian daley View Post
    Hi Darren, I really enjoyed viewing your collection,I had never seen those old photo's before but I remember seeing the engraved picture of the Dingle . I thought it was an idealised version of what the Dingle used to be.It was in a book we had in Tiber Street J.I. school. Those photo's prove the engraving to be true,thanks for sharing them,
    BrianD
    Thanks Brian, I had the same experience when I discovered them. All images are from the LRO, so only publushed the ones I have here.

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    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knowhowe View Post
    Hear hear to all that. Many thanks for these very evocative pictures.

    What a tragedy that we lost such a beautiful place in the name of progress. It would surely be treasured today if it had survived.
    Couldn't agree more. Sadly, if you can't cost-it in ? & d, then it's not valued, seems to be the case.

  4. #19
    Keeping It Real !!!!!!!!! ItsaZappathing's Avatar
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    Hi Darren.
    Great posts. Fine pics

  5. #20
    Senior Member dazza's Avatar
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    Default 1847 Tithe Award Schedules

    Hi guys, thanks for all your comments and encouragement to date. To add another level of detail - I've included the 1847 Tithe Award Schedules for the Dingle area, which show who owned the land; who occupied it, and gives the name and use of each parcel of land, and how much tithe [rent-charge] was paid upon it.

    Apologies, the original Schedules are A3 sized. I've had to break them into two A4 sheets, for the scan, and labelled them: Left Hand (LH), Right Hand (RH), though they should be read together.

    See the column "Numbers referring to Plan" on the (LH) Schedule. These correspond to the numbers listed on the map.

    For example: 'Richard Vaughan Yates' [his father was the Rev. John Yates] is listed, and was the donar of Prince's Park. He lived at The Ellerslie [No. 442] which is described as "House, Outbuildings, Garden and Pleasure Ground" which attracted no tithe.

    Anna Marie & Jane Ellen Yates [AKA: The Misses Yates] allowed public assess across their land [No. 451] through to the Dingle Glen on what became known locally as "Dingle Days".

    Dingle glen itself [No. 446] is described as "Dingle and Plantations, or Big Dingle Wood". Again no Tithe [rent-charge] is payable, as it wasn't arable, productive land. Dingle glen head [No. 445] is described as "Upper Dingle Field, or Part of Rose's Hey and Dingle" attracted a total Tithe [rent-charge] of 18s 11d, as it's "State of Cultivation" is listed as "Meadow and Wheat".



    1847 Related Map to Tithe Award Schedule LRO Hf.912 TOX




    Schedule 1 (LH) - 1847 Toxeth Park Tithe Award Schedule LRO Hf.912 TOX




    Schedule 1 (RH) - 1847 Related Map to Tithe Award Schedule LRO Hf.912 TOX




    Schedule 2 (LH) - 1847 Toxeth Park Tithe Award Schedule LRO Hf.912 TOX




    Schedule 2 (RH) - 1847 Related Map to Tithe Award Schedule LRO Hf.912 TOX

  6. #21
    Local Historian Cadfael's Avatar
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    Utterly amazing! You do learn more about Liverpool each and every day!

    From someone who lived in Otterspool Park from going there each day after going to St Margaret's next door, and thinking he knew every inch of the park, I've gotta go across the road to Jericho lane at the weekend and see everything with new eyes!!

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    Great stuff there,Darren! It's a fascinating area,and great to see those pic's!

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    The River Mersey had a number of inlets off the river. Liver pool, Wallasey Pool, Brombrough Pool, etc.

    Wallasey Pool was large with fishing boats using it up to Poulton, which is way inland now, and is now Birkenhead Docks. The shape of the docks is determined by the pool. Liver Pool has totally disappeared, being filled in to create the Old Dock. Bromborough Pool became Bromborough Dock in the 1930s. Recently the docks was filled in - land by stealth again. It should have been made a natural inlet again, as that is what it was, not land.

    I believe there was a Tranmere Pool as well. Again filled in. Is the river itself next to be filled in?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    The River Mersey had a number of inlets off the river. Liver pool, Wallasey Pool, Brombrough Pool, etc.

    Wallasey Pool was large with fishing boats using it up to Poulton, which is way inland now, and is now Birkenhead Docks. The shape of the docks is determined by the pool. Liver Pool has totally disappeared, being filled in to create the Old Dock. Bromborough Pool became Bromborough Dock in the 1930s. Recently the docks was filled in - land by stealth again. It should have been made a natural inlet again, as that is what it was, not land.

    I believe there was a Tranmere Pool as well. Again filled in. Is the river itself next to be filled in?
    Bromborough Pool became Port Sunlight Docks. It was at one time one of the busiest docks in the country. It seviced Lever Bros Port Sunlight factory. It used to ship in raw materials and oils and take away detergents and soap. It was filled in and became a landfill. The only bit left are where the lock gates used to be. What a crime. They should hang their heads in shame.

  10. #25
    Local Historian Cadfael's Avatar
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    Sent this link to my uncle - got this reply:

    I remember this area because when I was at St Michael's school [late 1940's] we used to walk to the school playing fields which were down Jerico Lane. The area that you describe did not look at all like the photos. It was a field of grass with a stream running across it from the Sefton park corner to across jerico lane from the entrance of Otterspool Park. This was all on the Aighburth Road side of the railway. I understood that the stream was the overflow from the lake system in Sefton Park and fed the strem through otterspool park and gardens. Somewhere near the railway was a farm All of the land alongside the river from Otterspool to Dingle Lane was sports fields.

  11. #26
    Local Historian Cadfael's Avatar
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    Ignore my last post - I was thinking that it was the Aigburth Drive/Jerico Lane end and I've got it wrong! It's opposite the Pleasure Dome (or what's left ie nothing)

    Now it all makes sense!!!

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    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadfael View Post
    Sent this link to my uncle - got this reply:

    I remember this area because when I was at St Michael's school [late 1940's] we used to walk to the school playing fields which were down Jerico Lane. The area that you describe did not look at all like the photos. It was a field of grass with a stream running across it from the Sefton park corner to across jerico lane from the entrance of Otterspool Park. This was all on the Aighburth Road side of the railway. I understood that the stream was the overflow from the lake system in Sefton Park and fed the strem through otterspool park and gardens. Somewhere near the railway was a farm All of the land alongside the river from Otterspool to Dingle Lane was sports fields.
    I played football at Jerico playing fields . It must have been there until the early 1980.

    I recall as a tiny kid Jerico farm, seeing for the first time a cow. It was near the gate at Jerico Lane. It was brown and white patches. I touched it. I have never touched a cow since. Yes, a farm in the city. The farmhouse was there until the early to mid 1970s, then it was demolished to build flats between Jerico Lane and Aigburth Rd. It was a nice house and deserved to be kept.

    Otterspool had a small coaster dock in the 1930s, built by an American. It was envisaged that docks would extend from Herculaneum to Garston, and he got in there fisrt
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  13. #28
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadfael View Post
    Ignore my last post - I was thinking that it was the Aigburth Drive/Jerico Lane end and I've got it wrong! It's opposite the Pleasure Dome (or what's left ie nothing)

    Now it all makes sense!!!
    Yes, Dingle and Otterspool were two separate inlets in the river. Someone lived in an old ramshackle house at the beach at Otterspool until the 1930s when the prom was started with the extracted earth from the Mersey tunnel used as fill. They were turfed out.

    BTW, an add on TV right now, with Japanese Sumo wrestlers is filmed at Dingle - Lambton Rd.
    The new Amsterdam at Liverpool?
    Save Liverpool Docks and Waterways - Click

    Deprived of its unique dockland waters Liverpool
    becomes a Venice without canals, just another city, no
    longer of special interest to anyone, least of all the
    tourist. Would we visit a modernised Venice of filled in
    canals to view its modern museum describing
    how it once was?


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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    BTW, an add on TV right now, with Japanese Sumo wrestlers is filmed at Dingle - Lambton Rd.
    Ah, I thought it must be in Liverpool but couldn't place that nice house with the turret... well spotted!
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    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterways View Post
    I played football at Jerico playing fields . It must have been there until the early 1980.

    I recall as a tiny kid Jerico farm, seeing for the first time a cow. It was near the gate at Jerico Lane. It was brown and white patches. I touched it. I have never touched a cow since. Yes, a farm in the city. The farmhouse was there until the early to mid 1970s, then it was demolished to build flats between Jerico Lane and Aigburth Rd. It was a nice house and deserved to be kept.

    Otterspool had a small coaster dock in the 1930s, built by an American. It was envisaged that docks would extend from Herculaneum to Garston, and he got in there fisrt
    Hi Waterways

    Actually I am certain the Jericho Farm farmhouse was demolished in the Sixties not the Seventies. I lived in Mossley Hill at the time and because I was very interested in local history, I distinctly remember it being swept away. This was about the same time the Old Hutte at Halewood was demolished to make way for the Ford factory. Both of those events, and losses to local history (!), had to have been in the Sixties because I re-emigrated to come back to the United States in August 1968, leaving on a United States Lines freighter from Liverpool to Philadelphia.

    Best regards

    Chris
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