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Stan Zabecki sent me today’s photograph. A lovely photograph, it was taken by Frank Dugan, the American GI whose work has appeared here before. It is not an image I can remember from the portfolio Frank showed me back in the early 1990s. My first reaction was that it was taken at Princes Park Gates [...]
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Great photo again Colin.
I'd be very surprised if that was Princes Park gates - the roads look too narrow and the right angle of the pavement looks out of place.
If I had to guess, I would say it was around the Park Way/Selboorne st. area because of the yellow bricked houses. There also used to be a public toilet up that way which may account for the wrought-iron work.
I decided to read the text below the photo and now see you have already discounted Princes Park, sorry Colin.
In my fumbling around I found this, which may be of interest...
http://www.francisfrith.com/wallasey...n=google.co.uk
Hi Colin, another gem.
Initialy I though it was by the Arkles / around Anfield but then noticed those are 3 storey Terraced Houses !
Someone must know, come on, where are or where were 3 story terraced houses ?
Thanks Colin, Mart
Not Newsham Park.
Looks like Belvedere Road / Devonshire Road, Im sure there is another gate to Princes park along there.
Could it be Worcestor rd, Bootle ? Derby park perhaps ?
Since Park gates don't usually close in day time, could it be an entrance to a yard or factory - rather than park gates?
I agree with Davec, they could be wrought iron around the underground Toilets that used to be around the city
This is Newsham Park,though what part I ain't got a clue? Judges Drive area maybe? most of the gates are lost on newsham Park but the house are similair to those in the pic.
The wide street running from the top in this LRO aerial shot is Selbourne St, and the street that runs across it just before if 'dog-legs' is Parkway.
Of the 3 rows of houses in Parkway only the right hand 2 rows remain.
I think the lad is standing in the dog-leg of Selbourne St. with the no longer existing block of houses behind.
A no-entry sign is still used in the street.
http://archive.liverpool.gov.uk/dser...ge=9078_75.jpg
A shot from Google street view which would be to the right of young lad.
I studied that google view earlier Dave and agree with you
AND very well done for finding it :handclap: :handclap:
Mart
The gates look a bit too fancy for public bogs. They look ecclesiastical or religious, with those gothic motifs. Could they be the back gates to the Princes Road Synagogue or to that chapter house (octagonal?) looking building (church???) to the east of the synagogue?Quote:
Originally Posted by hmtmaj
I'll go along with that Dave,and as Mart said a good find.Quote:
I think the lad is standing in the dog-leg of Selbourne St. with the no longer existing block of houses behind.
I'm thinking those cast iron gates? where the entrence to the church opposite the houses?,but Im not too sure whether what is front now has been there since the photo was taken?
Below is the front view of those house I think? and the second view is whats facing those houses across the road.
Attachment 22459Attachment 22460
the gates would have belonged to the building with the white arrow,what that building is I don't know because theres a church there on the site now.
The other white arrow is the houses in the pic,well done again Dave...Princess avenue.
Attachment 22466
Could it have been Corporation offices? They where almost church like at one time.
Here is a later and smaller one still on Garston Old Rd.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/4...4043e37174.jpg
Here is the chuch that got demolished in Colins pic and a new church erected in its place which is still standing.
Sadly it doesn't show the side of the gates.
Attachment 22467
Think I agree with you ( for once George :rolleyes: )
Colin, give Dave and George a coconut :handclap:
Mart
I fink the new church or the building alongside was a school for the deaf?
But the case is solved in my view but what was the name of the old church on Park Way/Princess Ave?
Great detective work, Davec. But isn't the church in the LRO view of 1928 the same church that is visible in the distance in the Google view in post 11?Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgePorgie
Chris
No Christopher, it wasn't the same church as the 1928 pic,the new church was erected to the same specs with various differences and the brickwork in 1928 matched the surrounding houses ie white brick whereas the new church is all redbrick.
google it and you see slight differences to that in 1928,particulary the architecture over the doors.
Sherlock strikes again. :)
---------- Post added at 03:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:30 PM ----------
I've found out where the gates where? there is an Electrical substation been built where the gates would have been. :)
Hi George
Thanks for that explanation about the rebuilding of the church and also for identifying where the gates would have stood. This has been a most interesting puzzle and fascinating to read all the input into identifying the location. :handclap:
Chris
GP, is this roughly the area you mean? Attachment 22470Click image for larger viewQuote:
Originally Posted by GeorgePorgie
Since it was such a close rebuild, could it have had bomb damage in the blitz and needed a quick major rebuild, so they kept the old outline?Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgePorgie
I have no idea about location but its such a wonderful pic I want to show more people. I presume its ok to do that?
Thanks for all the effort. I visited Selbourne Street today and - for a moment - thought the gates were still there outside the octagonal Deaf and Dumb Institute but they were not the same ones (although they look as if they have been there for some time - see photo). Also, the buildings opposite were not the same.
I'll have another visit tomorrow.
Attachment 22471
Colin the gates would have been here on the otherside of the building......
Attachment 22474
GP, I think the first photo is looking at corner of Northbrook and Parkway.and the church in the second photo, that's the old Welsh Presbyterian church at the top of Upper Hill Street,and the tramway ran across the view from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgePorgie
---------- Post added at 11:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 PM ----------
GP,Can't find a record of demolition and rebuilding , when did it happen?Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgePorgie
Colin, the little lad is smack bang in the middle of the road, so for the 'gates' to swing out that far they would have to be something rather special - at least in terms of width.
I really don't think that they belong to a building on either side of the road.
This is where I was thinking the action had taken place - the angle is as near as I can get it and the landscape on the left is totally changed, apart from the wall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davec
Do you think he'd be positioned somewhere like this?Attachment 22476 Click to enlarge
Do you mean this one with the mature trees partially obscuring it?:Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge
Attachment 22477 Click to enlarge.
I believe it is definatly this location/area and we should leave it at this,Colin it was this area ie ParkWay. :)Quote:
This is where I was thinking the action had taken place - the angle is as near as I can get it and the landscape on the left is totally changed, apart from the wall.
Might those be the gates? :PDT_Xtremez_12: Actually the gates in question would have been on the back side, i.e., Selborne Street side, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by grekko
What's meant by Davec's comment "Colin, the little lad is smack bang in the middle of the road," -- I don't see that at all.
Any thoughts about the street being paved with stone setts (that some call "cobblestones") rather than asphalted.
Chris
Chris,underneath all that asphalt are the original setts;well not always, and it was quite usual to tarmac over rather than uplift the "cobble" roadway. If you expand the photo on post # 23 you will see some remaining setts in the gateway entrance which have never been asphalted over, the continuance of them is under the adjoining roadway.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge
The B/W insert photo :"the little lad is smack bang in the middle of the road" refers to the positioning of the boy in front of the gate (attached to what??) showing where the housing behind him would have stood prior demolition and the street sign corresponding positions and roadways as marked. As I say the gate in question is the bugbear, unless it was swung out into Shelborne Rd from the entranceway on the left ....... see brick and sandstone pillars at back of Princes Rd Synagogue, post # 23
/
Grekko, yes that's pretty much where I mean.
Chris, looking at Colin's photo I see what looks to me like a curbside on the left and a curbside on the right that are pretty much the same distance from the lad.
This link is to the same overhead view, but allows you to get a decent enlarged view if you click it. If you have a look at Princes Road end of Selbourne Street (just around the corner from the front of the Synagogue) there appears to be something in the road.
What it is I don't know, but it looks like maybe bushes.
http://www.btinternet.com/~m.royden/...ges/aerial.jpg
Chris, hope you managed to make some sense of my muddled explanation.
---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 AM ----------
See what you mean Dave, as you say it could be bushes but why in the centre of a roadway like that,unless it was unadopted and privately gated, weird it is, great spot by you though, but we're no more certain than when this started by the looks of it. The original photographer Frank Dugan is no longer with us to explain as he died in 2003 or 4 and his widow died in January of this year so any hope that she may have known of Frank's photo location has gone also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davec
Hi grecko and Davec
Many thanks for the information. Interesting how Frank Dugan's 1954 photograph continues to intrigue and confound us!
Chris
The setts/cobbles were there till at least the mid 60's, I used to go down Park Way to get to Stanley House in Upper Parly.
Re the bogs.........cut and paste from the LRO catalogue;
RefNo 296 OHC/58/4
Title Plan for the proposed urinal in Selbourne Street, Liverpool
Date 1890
Extent 1 paper
First record Previous record Record: 2 of 2
Okay, thanks, DaveQuote:
Originally Posted by Davec
My god, another underground urinal, just how many of these are hidden under our streets. I knew of Derby sq, London rd, Victoria St, and Rotunda.....did the Victorians build many of these?
Now I think of it,:shock: a photographer taking photo's in a gents toilet