Grey Horse Knotty Ash?

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03-13-2011
robbo176

Grey Horse Knotty Ash?

Does anyone know where Grey Horse hamlet was?
I'm looking for my Howard family who lived in & around Prescot Rd on various census

there seems to be a cluster of Howard's living there too & I'm trying to connect them with mine

one family (definetly mine) lived at Lord Nelson (Court) does anyone know where that was ?

another lived Prescot Rd in the village or hamlet of Grey horse(1871) I've looked at maps but can't find Grey horse...I can find Black Horse or Grey Hound but not GreyHorse could it be by the brewery somewhere

can anyone help???
03-13-2011
Oudeis

In the meantime (unless this is you?)...

http://nmfhssouthport.myfreeforum.or...t__t_1243.html
03-13-2011
hmtmaj

There's a Grey Horse mentioned here:
http://yourarchives.nationalarchives...reet_Index_G-K

Lord Neloson "Cottages" are, I believe behind the Lord nelson Pub.

There was a The Bay Horse Hotel, which was situated between Knotty Ash Station and Eaton Rd.

Mart
03-13-2011
Ged

There is a Lord Nelson pub now on Prescot Road and across in Sprinfield Park, Nelson's Monument/obelisk. There is a Greyhound pub, but not grey horse? But - there is a black horse pub too of course. This on the 1908 Edwardian map.
03-13-2011
dot

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmtmaj

There's a Gey Horse mentioned here:
http://yourarchives.nationalarchives...reet_Index_G-K

Lord Neloson "Cottages" are, I believe behind the Lord nelson Pub.

There was a The Bay Horse Hotel, which was situated between Knotty Ash Station and Eaton Rd.

Mart

Hi Mart,
The Lord Nelson cottages where next to the Lord Nelson pub on East Prescot Rd and ran the full length to Rudyard Rd just before Sainsbury,s , the cottages to the rear of the Lord Nelson are St Annes Cottages, all housed Joseph Jones,s brewery workers, there was another pub The Turks Head which stood on the now site of Windsors shoeshop.
03-13-2011
robbo176

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oudeis

In the meantime (unless this is you?)...

http://nmfhssouthport.myfreeforum.or...t__t_1243.html

thank you Oudeis,I haven't come across any Southport connection yet but I've bookmarked the page :)

---------- Post added at 08:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:09 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmtmaj

There's a Gey Horse mentioned here:
http://yourarchives.nationalarchives...reet_Index_G-K

Lord Neloson "Cottages" are, I believe behind the Lord nelson Pub.

There was a The Bay Horse Hotel, which was situated between Knotty Ash Station and Eaton Rd.

Mart

thanks Mart I saw the photo of the Bayhorse on your site :)

---------- Post added at 08:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ged

There is a Lord Nelson pub now on Prescot Road and across in Sprinfield Park, Nelson's Monument/obelisk. There is a Greyhound pub, but not grey horse? But - there is a black horse pub too of course. This on the 1908 Edwardian map.

thanks Ged,I've looked on maps & in books but can't find any mention of greyhorse apart from the census

---------- Post added at 08:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by dot

Hi Mart,
The Lord Nelson cottages where next to the Lord Nelson pub on East Prescot Rd and ran the full length to Rudyard Rd just before Sainsbury,s , the cottages to the rear of the Lord Nelson are St Annes Cottages, all housed Joseph Jones,s brewery workers, there was another pub The Turks Head which stood on the now site of Windsors shoeshop.

thanks Dot,I'm at Alder Hey tomorrow so I might have a nose around...I did see a very old street sign for St Anne's cottage last time I looked but didn't have my camera

---------- Post added at 08:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 PM ----------

this is the description for the enumeration district on 1881 census
Prescot Rd south side from Chapmans Corner to Thomas Lane,including Swan Row Littledales House & lodges, all the houses about Grey Horse,Lord Nelson & Nelson Yard ,Park View to Hewitts house ,houses of gateway & the back
03-13-2011
Spike

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmtmaj

Lord Nelson "Cottages" are, I believe behind the Lord nelson Pub.

Mart

The cottages are still there. Go through the entry that is called ' LITTLE BONGS ' and the cottages are there. They run behind the Lord Nelson pub.
03-13-2011
robbo176

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

The cottages are still there. Go through the entry that is called ' LITTLE BONGS ' and the cottages are there. They run behind the Lord Nelson pub.

thanks Spike I will look tomorrow if I can
I wasn't sure if it was a court because in 1871 its called Lord Nelson Court...just called Lord Nelson in 1881
03-13-2011
Spike

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbo176

this is the description for the enumeration district on 1881 census
Prescot Rd south side from Chapmans Corner to Thomas Lane,including Swan Row Littledales House & lodges, all the houses about Grey Horse,Lord Nelson & Nelson Yard ,Park View to Hewitts house ,houses of gateway & the back

Thomas Littledale was Lord Mayor in 1826. He is noted as being part of St John's Church on Thomas Lane. So Littledales House could be his? Puts it in this area though.
03-13-2011
dot

Hi Spike,
The Bongs are at the back of the cottages on East Prescot Rd opposite Windsors shoe shop, St Annes cottages are at the rear of the Lord Nelson pub in Rudyard Close, there is an old weather worn sign to the side of no 1 St Annes Cotts built 1882 not sure of the date for the Bongs
03-13-2011
Spike

Your right Dot.

You can get to the cottages at the side of Sainsbury's next to the Lord Nelson Pub.
03-13-2011
robbo176

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

Thomas Littledale was Lord Mayor in 1826. He is noted as being part of St John's Church on Thomas Lane. So Littledales House could be his? Puts it in this area though.

thanks for the info Spike.....I wonder if Greyhorse was a Hamlet why isn't it on any maps...Black Horse Hamlet is!!!
03-13-2011
Spike

Littledale is off Thomas Lane near to the church.
03-13-2011
Oudeis

The excerpt you quoted earlier does not mention Grey Horse Hamlet. I suppose there might have been a farm stead named after an Anglo Saxon, it then became an inn then a pub, but the name stuck?
03-13-2011
Spike

Looked on a 1906 map but not much is listed by name aaargh.

Funny enough there are Littledales Cottages listed further up towards Queens Drive Old Swan.
03-13-2011
robbo176

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oudeis

The excerpt you quoted earlier does not mention Grey Horse Hamlet. I suppose there might have been a farm stead named after an Anglo Saxon, it then became an inn then a pub, but the name stuck?

in 1871 Amy Howard (don't know if she's one of mine) lived Prescot Rd in the village or hamlet of Greyhorse ....West Derby district 66
03-13-2011
Oudeis

Soundly, but gently slapped on wrist. I am not having my best weekend for inter-gender relationships. :(
03-13-2011
robbo176

Mart what year is the directory on your website?
there's a James Howard at 67 Prescot Rd & another one? at 99 Prescot Rd

---------- Post added at 09:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oudeis

Soundly, but gently slapped on wrist. I am not having my best weekend for inter-gender relationships. :(

its my fault for not wording it properly....I've been trying to connect this family for a while now & its doing my head in :)
its not only the place names, its wondering if there is any connection & if not why are there so many Howards living so close together since at least 1841
03-13-2011
Oudeis

1851: Ref No. RG 10/3850, Folio Nos. 132-133

Prescot Street. Nearby street Grey Horse.

---------- Post added at 10:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 PM ----------

As this is the blind leading the far sighted I will stop at this...

Marriage: 2 Dec 1891 St Mary, West Derby, Lancashire, England
William Henry Metcalfe - 33 Groom Bachelor of Swan Road, Old Swan
Jane Howard - 26 Spinster of Swan Road, Old Swan
Groom's Father: Thomas Metcalfe, Mason
Bride's Father: John Howard, Farmer
Witness: Thomas Metcalfe; Ellen Jones
Married by Banns by: R. Cuffe
Register: Marriages 1883 - 1903, Page 101, Entry 202
Source: LDS Film 1546071

The Church of St Mary the Virgin
(West Derby Chapel), West Derby

From...

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Liverpool/...1883-1903.html
03-13-2011
robbo176

thank you for taking the trouble for looking for me Oudeis...& everyone else too its much appreciated :hug:
03-14-2011
hmtmaj

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbo176

Mart what year is the directory on your website?
there's a James Howard at 67 Prescot Rd & another one? at 99 Prescot Rd

Its on the 1906 map page.... 1906 :PDT_Piratz_26:

Mart
03-14-2011
robbo176

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmtmaj

Its on the 1906 map page.... 1906 :PDT_Piratz_26:

Mart

thanks Mart :)

I found this in Lost villages of Liverpool pt 3 by Derek Whale

Another set of well known cottages thereabouts ,until their demolition before the last war,were Grey horse cottages.These stood with an old pub called the Grey horse,on whose gable end was mounted a carved horses head.And in in one of these cottages live a lively lass named "Big Lill" - a huge ,fearless but good-hearted soul who really enjoyed her ale.On the occasions when Lill imbibed too much & became fighting drunk ,it took the combined efforts of six policemen to hoist her into the black Maria !
Squeezed in somewhere between Knotty Ash & Old Swan was another tiny hamlet called "Pump Fold" which was known to postmen ,if few other people ,in its time.A handful of dwellings there were called Littledale's cottages.

Big Lill sounds like one of my lot haha!!! :)
03-14-2011
Oudeis

Squeezed between Knotty Ash and Old Swan is Grey Horse. I did wonder what was put on a savoury butty. I'll stick to the Jam ones though myself. ;)
03-14-2011
Ged

Quote:

Squeezed in somewhere between Knotty Ash & Old Swan was another tiny hamlet called "Pump Fold" which was known to postmen ,if few other people ,in its time.A handful of dwellings there were called Littledale's cottages.

Come on Spike, you must know it then? ;)
03-14-2011
robbo176

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ged

Come on Spike, you must know it then? ;)

he did know where Littledale cottages were :)
03-14-2011
hmtmaj

Littledale cottages were stil there in 1906 - see map on the site.
They stood about where the masionettes are now between Prescot Rd and Warmington Rd.

Mart
03-14-2011
alansimp

1 Attachment(s)

I have a book called Knotty Ash, Old Swan and West Derby by G. Radley.

On page 26 it states "the stationmaster's house stands on the corner of Warmington Road. On the opposite corner, stood a wooden cafe alongside a group of old cottages. Next to the cottages stood the Bay Horse. They Bay Horse seems to have been demolished before 1930."

Attachment 19040
1906 map courtesy of old-maps.co.uk.
03-14-2011
marky

1891 census:
The Grey Horse Inn, 22, Prescot Rd RG12/3001/60a. Ignore this one, though.

Grey Horse (beerhouse, Elizabeth Charnock), 161, Prescot Rd* RG12/3001/36a.
The Charnocks appear on a few Census' at Prescot Rd as beerhouse/beersellers.
Charnock Cottages are marked on an early map. On later maps the area of Spring Place and Littledale's Cottages.

*this was on the section of Prescot Rd between Old Swan and Knotty Ash.
03-15-2011
robbo176

thanks again everyone for you time & effort ...just one question is Bay Horse another hamlet or just a pub/inn?
03-16-2011
hmtmaj

I think the Bay horse was an inn/pub, not a hamlet, but only my guess
03-16-2011
alansimp

I think the Bay Horse is a spelling mistake - the Grey Horse gave its name to the attached cottages, but it wasn't officially known as a hamlet.
03-17-2011
marky

Pictures of Spring Place (Numbers 1-7), Littledales Cottages, Bay Horse Hotel:
http://oldswan.piczo.com/prescotroad...linkvar=000044

1871 Census RG10/3850/131-133a
The enumerators walk out of Old Swan seems to be...
Prescot Rd
"End of the Village of Old Swan"
Prescot Rd continues...
Household
Household, Elizabeth CHARNOCK, beer house keeper
Household
Spring Place, numbers 1-7 (No.4 Head of household, William CHARNOCK)
Prescot Rd continues...
Household, Thomas CHARNOCK, beer house keeper (looks to me to read Derby Arms?)
Household
Household
Household, John CHARNOCK
Household
Household
Household
Grey horse Courts (8 houses)
"End of the Hamlet of grey horse"
Prescot Rd continues...but as Knotty Ash

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e..._1850s_map.jpg
The Charnocks are a constant on the Census' 1841-1901 (they ran the Grey Horse beer house).
This is the area of Charnock's Cottages, 1850s, from http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html
This small clump of buildings seems to be the extent of grey horse 'hamlet'.
03-17-2011
Oudeis

Well done, Marky. :)

BTW...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00zl4dx

Radio 4 Sunday at 1:30 pm.
03-17-2011
robbo176

1 Attachment(s)

yes well done Marky

this is the 1841 Census showing my gt gt gt grandfather living at Grey Horse next to Rachael Charnock