Derby Square - Old Vaults

1) Photograph of a series of old vaults at Derby Square, 04/11/1903. On the other side of the fence, there is a tram whose destination is Castle Street, Breckfield Road and Seaforth. On the side of the tram there is an advertisement for Kardomah Tea.

2) A photograph of a series of old vaults at Derby Square, 04/11/1903. On the fence around the area there are some advertisments, advertising the Daily Mirror and Quaker Oats.

3) A photograph a series of old vaults at Derby Square, 04/11/1903.



Courtesy of LRO ref: 352 ENG/2/502, 505 & 506 [can be viewed on the online archive].

The photographs of the vaults [above] are dated 4th Nov. 1903

The Monument to Queen Victoria, Derby Square. The foundation stone was laid Sat. 11th October 1902 and the statue was unveiled, Thurs. 27th September 1906.

The vaults, whereabout in Derby Square though? I don't know, maybe some clues below?

Photo 1) A tram car can be seen over the fence in. And also the very faint shadow of some windows can be seen beyond that. ie: The tram tracks pass between the building, in the distance, and the vaults. This could be either the centre, or somewhere on Preesons Row?

Photo 2) shows a neighbouring property, with sash window above ground, so this may rule out it being in the centre?

Great them. Any connection to the castle perhaps? Or just cellars of property that was once on Derby Square?

would that be where the gents toilets where built?

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Originally Posted by robbo176

would that be where the gents toilets where built?

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Oh aye - didn't know you'd been down there????? :)

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Originally Posted by Ged

Oh aye - didn't know you'd been down there????? :)

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I haven't :p

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Originally Posted by robbo176

would that be where the gents toilets where built?

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I'll answer Mandy first.

Male Conveniences. Well, the ladies don't get much opportunity to see these things in real life, so here goes :noid: :). I don't think so - the vaults must be located elsewhere? One reason I think that, is that the loo's were cylindrical, and not square in plan like the vaults.

1) Photograph, 25/07/1906, of the ceiling of the public conveniences that were built underground in Derby Square. This shows the domed ceiling which protrudes above the ground. The street running behind the public conveniences is Preesons Row, and the street running off that, Redcress Street.

2) Photograph, 21/11/1904, of the urinals in the public convenience in Derby Square. The walls are tiled and the floor has a mosaic covering.


Courtesy of LRO ref: 352 ENG/2/972 & 636 [can be viewed on the online archive].

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Originally Posted by dazza

I'll answer you first Mandy.

Male Conveniences. Well, the ladies don't get much opportunity to see these things in real life, so here goes :noid: :). I don't think so - the vaults must be located elsewhere? One reason is that the loo's were cylindrical and not square in plan as the vaults were. Also one of the photo's is dated 1904, 2 years before the vaults were photographed in the OP.


1) Photograph, 25/07/1906, of the ceiling of the public conveniences that were built underground in Derby Square. This shows the domed ceiling which protrudes above the ground. People are walking along the street. The street running behind the public conveniences is likely to be Preesons Row, and the street running off that, Redcress Street.

2) Photograph, 21/11/1904, of the urinals in the public convenience in Derby Square. The walls are tiled and the floor has a mosaic covering.


Courtesy of LRO ref: 352 ENG/2/972 & 636 [can be viewed on the online archive].

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thanks Dazza

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Originally Posted by Ged

Great them. Any connection to the castle perhaps? Or just cellars of property that was once on Derby Square?

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Sorry Ged? I was hoping one of you guys might know something? Photo 2) in the OP has what looks like a neighbouring building with a sash window, so that would rule out the middle of Derby Square, unfortunately.

There's another photo in the series that may help determine the location: 352 ENG/2/503. I'll check it out when I'm next at the LRO.

I'm surprised nobody got this.
The vaults must be what was left of St George's Church.
The church was demolished in 1899, but apparently not the basement.
As Robbo says there were (still are?) toilets under the Victoria Memorial, so further excavation was required.

Nice photos guys. I remember the gents toilets, I used to use them. We used to get the number 10 there up to Kensington. Go to Holt road and pop into Woolies and look at the toys.

The pics are great, but I am trying to get my head around, where the gents toilets where?

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Originally Posted by Quentin_Sharples

I'm surprised nobody got this.
The vaults must be what was left of St George's Church.
The church was demolished in 1899, but apparently not the basement.
As Robbo says there were (still are?) toilets under the Victoria Memorial, so further excavation was required.

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Thanks QS, this was my first thought also. But I'm less sure now?

Firstly, St. George's church had a crypt, but it was more of less level with current pavement. The first church was raised, and sat on an arched podium [containing the crypt], the church floor was actually built one storey higher than generally assumed. This was accessed front and back by a series of stairs. The 2nd rebuild scrapped the arches, but the levels would be the same.

My guess is that the original architect didn't want to excavate down into the castle bedrock which the church nave was over, and just built the crypt off the bedrock, creating an artificial base/ podium for the church to sit on. The tower has we all know was foolishly sited over the original castle ditch, and experienced settlement problems later on, and had to be replaced.

The toilets. The 1906 OS map of Derby Square shows the gents loos outside of Queen Vic. memorial [below].

So, where does that leave us? Photo 2) in the OP shows a neighbouring building with sash window? St George's church was only demolished 4 years before this photo.? And I doubt they built on the site in those few years? Perhaps the vaults belong to a property in Preesons Row?

Any ideas?

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...77/1906map.jpg

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Originally Posted by lindac8941

The pics are great, but I am trying to get my head around, where the gents toilets where?

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The Ladies were directly under the Victoria Memorial, while the Gents were behind.

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Originally Posted by Quentin_Sharples

The Ladies were directly under the Victoria Memorial, while the Gents were behind.

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QS, there's no entry stairs shown for the Ladies around the memorial? And no skylights etc., which you'd expect to see. I wondering whether the ladies loo's were above ground, before they errected the monument over the site?

There's no mention of Ladies loo's being incorporated Public Sculpture of Liverpool.

I know someone who worked in one of the nearby offices,and one of her duties was,to take boxes of legal files for storage, in some cellars(?) which she thinks where under Derby square!? She says the brickwork in these cellars,was not modern,and guessed they were from an earlier time!!

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Originally Posted by lindac8941

The pics are great, but I am trying to get my head around, where the gents toilets where?

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There's a coincidence for you Linda,I've just posted the same pic's of the toilets,on another thread,before I saw this one????? It's the "Playhouse" thread,in Liverpool remembered!

Identification of the "Old Vaults" in Derby Square, and location.

I'll upload to Photobucket, when back online.

Previous post uploaded to Photobucket.

St George's church - basement beneath crypt - Photographs taken 4th Nov. 1903 - courtesy of LRO 352 ENG/2/505
The view is looking from Derby Square, towards Canning Place.
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...quare21903.jpg

St George's church - basement beneath crypt - Photographs taken 4th Nov. 1903 - courtesy of LRO 352 ENG/2/502
The view is looking from Derby Square, towards Canning Place.
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...Square1903.jpg



Location of old vaults identified.
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...gesChurch3.jpg

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...gesChurch2.jpg

Facinating stuff Dazza , i never knew these places ever existed . The grandure of the toilets !!

Thanks Miss Lane. I think these excavations were for the Queen Victoria memorial.

Very good Dazza

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Originally Posted by dazza

Thanks Miss Lane. I think these excavations were for the Queen Victoria memorial.

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Oh , i was thinking we had a secret underground thing going on ... My imagination runs riot sometimes , my friend works in the Walker art gallery , when she's on nights , she has to walk under tunnels ALONE , to check if all the alams are working ..

Well done Dazza and Quentin Sharples.

Excellent work, Dazza. :handclap:

Thanks for the images.

Strictly speaking the excavations were for the toilets.
I'm sure Queen Vic's children were pleased a memorial to her was placed over toilets.

Ta, Ged.

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Originally Posted by Ged

Well done Dazza and Quentin Sharples.

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Thanks Ged, a few more photos to upload tomorrow. :)

You are very talented Dazza. I have seen your work on here before

Thank you suzi - flattery will get you everywhere. :PDT_Aliboronz_11:

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Originally Posted by Pennylane

Oh , i was thinking we had a secret underground thing going on ... My imagination runs riot sometimes..

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I think it's all the talk about basements, the underground, and gentleman's conveniences. It's just too much material for double-entendres. Ooh...err...missus! Careful now....I blush easily?

:PDT_Xtremez_42:

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Originally Posted by Pennylane

Facinating stuff Dazza , i never knew these places ever existed . The grandure of the toilets !!

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Nor me Penny, brilliant Dazza. Thanx a bunch for taking the time and effort. Much appreciated.:handclap:

Thanks Zappa :PDT_Aliboronz_24:

These are the prepatory excavations for public conveniences about the Queen Victoria Memorial.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...l8077/Exc4.jpg

Photo 1 ^ excavations for public conveniences, Derby Square, 1st July 1927


http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...l8077/Exc3.jpg

Photo 2 ^ excavations for public conveniences, Derby Square, 1st July 1927


http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...l8077/Exc2.jpg

Photo 3 ^ excavations for public conveniences, Derby Square, 1st July 1927


http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...l8077/Exc1.jpg

Photo 4 ^ excavations for public conveniences, Derby Square, 1st July 1927

All photographs courtesy of LRO.

Amazing stuff dazza, appreciate the time you've put into this and I find it all fascinating.
Anybody know when the toilets in Derby Square were finally closed?? I'm probably wrong but I'm sure I remember them being there early 80s??

Thanks gynsman, I'm glad you find it interesting. The LRO had incorrectly entitled this series "Castle Moat". I'll explain why this isn't exactly right tomorrow. A bit more digging to do in the meanwhile.
:034:

Double post, sorry :rolleyes:

just to add to the story, i worked as a telegram boy at derby house 1968/69, sefton house is the other building, some of the lads who had been there a long time knew how to get across the city centre from derby house underground when it was raining, i remember we were given luncheon vouchers and there was a great civil service canteen in whitechapel who accepted them, one day we agreed to go there for lunch but the heavens opened, one of the older boys took us almost all the way there underground, going through mostly boiler rooms and some tunnels, was well impressed

another bit of fun was we would go the the bernie inn in the bottom of sefton house underground so our boss would not see us, all under 18, we could get into the bernie inn and sit in one of the bars in the dark waiting for a waitress to open up and turn the lights on, used to frighten the life out of her but she got used to us

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Originally Posted by dazza

Thank you suzi - flattery will get you everywhere. :PDT_Aliboronz_11:

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lol. It never has in the past Dazza

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Originally Posted by bidston

just to add to the story, i worked as a telegram boy at derby house 1968/69, sefton house is the other building, some of the lads who had been there a long time knew how to get across the city centre from derby house underground when it was raining, i remember we were given luncheon vouchers and there was a great civil service canteen in whitechapel who accepted them, one day we agreed to go there for lunch but the heavens opened, one of the older boys took us almost all the way there underground, going through mostly boiler rooms and some tunnels, was well impressed

another bit of fun was we would go the the bernie inn in the bottom of sefton house underground so our boss would not see us, all under 18, we could get into the bernie inn and sit in one of the bars in the dark waiting for a waitress to open up and turn the lights on, used to frighten the life out of her but she got used to us

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Thanks for that confirmation,Bidston!I wonder if you can still do it now?

Fantastic as usual Dazza. Well done.

All the photographs were taken on 1st July 1927. Scroll up to Post#32 for the larger versions of each image.

The LRO had mistakeningly titled this series "Old Castle Moat, During Excavations For Public Conveniences". They were only partially right, as the next few images will explain.
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...verlaypics.jpg



http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...nveniences.jpg

The excavations shown in the photographs ^ were dug in preparation for the Ladies convenience, Derby Square.
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The illustration below shows the position of St George's church in relation to the excavation site. ie: an OS map 1927 [same date as the photos] is laid over an earlier 1848 OS map, which shows St George's church.

The walls that you can see in the photographs are John Foster Junior's reconstruction of St Georges church tower/ spire 1818-1825; the previous spire had to be dismantled by his father, due to subsidence caused by settlement of the castle moat, which the tower is built over. I've highlighted [in orange] the remainer of the church walls seen in the photographs. You are basically looking at the space between the body of the church, and the well created for the crypt and basement. This, the LRO mistakingly thought was the castle moat. They were partially right, as we are looking inside of the church crypt, which sat within the moat.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...7/Overlay1.jpg