Gardens, Tenements and Courts

Only because council policy at the time was to allow them to go to wrack and ruin when very few wanted to move out of these communities and set up petitions to stay (even though the councils had practically withdrawn maintenance and repairs so they could be put of their misery.

You should really see the gardens film documentary 'Gardens of Stone' and see the strong audience reaction from ex residents from all over Liverpool at how discraced they were at this policy, even none ex residence come to that.

I know you talk elsewhere about Thatcher's greed obsession for which we now pay the price. In communities such as these, even during her reign, that truly didn't exist, each had the same as their neighbour. Not many wanted the new houses with all mod cons and gardens to maintain and the facelessness that went with being behind your own fence or hedgerow.

I know you also talk elsewhere about fuel poverty. A number of these tenements still exist in the likes of Clubmoor, Wavertree, Upper Warwick st, Nelson st, St Anne street, Myrtle st and Copperas Hill (as pictured) and all are gated private communities which have been well incorporated into the 21st century with little bother and no one dying of the cold in the process. In fact I know of a number of people who paid good money to live in the ones that are not student based and visited one recently and very warm and comfortable they are too (though I really do appreciate how small the old back kitchens were now and how narrow the landings are - my rose tinted glasses did kick in as I always remembered them as being wider, but I was narrower too back then)

It's funny how these 5,6,7 high blocks are now back in vogue in the city centre and at what a price too.

The tower blocks are something different. Mis-managed. Isn't Beetham tower a glorified St. Georges Heights after all with security and car parking making it a difference. Take a look at view 146 and what was done with them.

Ged, I went into many of them as an engineer, and it was clear many were social dustbins. In many of them you never took a vehicle inside for fear of damage or being broken into. There were some exceptions, Wavertree was one, but few.

Fuel poverty affects mainly the poor. Those private residents can afford the fuel to heat those largely uninsulated structures. The poor council tenants shivered and only heated one room.

If they were such a social success they would all have still been intact.

In the broader sense, much of Liverpool over the past 150 years, social housing has always been an emergency stop gap - that is what the gardens and the later tower block were. The city has always been in a housing crisis. It got so bad the city was virtually a large council estate. Getting people independent and owning their own homes is the best way. Then no continually pouring large sums of public money into housing schemes that will not be there in 40 years time.

The city should concentrate in getting the Merseyrail transport infrastructure extended as a priority, especially the underground sections which run under inner-city areas. This will attract private investors. They lay the rails for private industry and housing to roll upon - provide the firm base. Then no bottomless pit suburbs, that the private sector will not touch with a barge pole, that consume billions over decades.

Yes they did become run down in the end, prematurely due to council policy like I said. Many had the playgrounds until the 1960s, the idea was to keep the kids in view. I've already mentioned that those that were spared are still intact and not one to my knowledge lies empty.

A 1950s reburb masterplan was touted and as recently as just a decade before demolition the corpy poured money into re-roofing Gerard Gardens and putting new WC's and Robinson Willey gas fires in all 400 flats. Hardly the actions of stop gap developments.

It was militants fight against Thatcher and the mass borrowing for new housing that many blame for Gerard Gardens demise but in actual fact, it was for a new ring road - the widening of Hunter Street to link Scotland Road with New Islington which was being formed, it'd been on the cards for years, first with looped flyovers at Lime st and Scotty/Leeds st junction.

The four squares tenements site was never built on, it still lies as a derelict lump of greenery now. Lawrence Gardens went on theloop site due to the Kingsway tunel approach road isolating it.

Less than half the residents got new housing out of it anyway.

To look at real failures you don't need to look at tenements or high rise - look at a model village based on a Cornish dream - it lasted less than a decade - The Radcliffe estate. Look at 60s pebble dashed flats that also provided rat runs and escape paths with no access for emergency vehicles such as the Grizedale estate off Robson street and the Easby estate in Kirkdale.

These, unlike the art deco monuments with gothic arches, ornamental lighting, stone pots and wrought iron railings were characterless.

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Originally Posted by Ged

Hello Burkhilly and Spike and how right you are. Yet another screening of Gardens of Stone took place last week in the old National Giro in Netherton. This concerns Liverpool's tenements and yet again, the people who lived in them and visited family there had only good memories to talk of.

One lady mentioned to me that she recently moved from her street after 10 years (after previously living in the odl tennies), she said tara to just 2 people that she got to know there as everybody kept themselves to themselves, didn't mingle and you never saw them after they were behind their front door. A world away from the old times of people standing on the landing jangling about nothing in particular as they watched the world go by and their kids play below in the square.

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didn't know it was being shown there I could've gone to see it.

will there be any more showings of this film Ged?

Hiya qg. Yes there are a few lined up but don't know all the dates yet, one at the aethenaum I think but possible only to members. It's had over 30 now city wide, there's bound to be others so I'll keep you posted and the forum in general. The giro one was for employees only as they have quite a few as you'll know.

My Dad lived in Kings Gardens for 10 years, and he used to say that if he could have got a flat there when he was married then we would all have been brought up there. My great grandma lived in Ashfield Gardens from just after the war until her death in 1978. she loved the place. My dad would always say that the bulldozer broke the communities. until his death, he would still meet up with old friends from scotland road and the Dingle. he loved to talk about the people back then with great fondness. My dad was born in St Martins Cottages.

I never lived in these flats, i lived in a house with a garden, boring as anything. but i had mates who lived in the flats, they loved the place.

Nice memories Spike.

My mate's mum and dad moved to Old Swan in the late 60s, to a house with a front and back garden after living in the Gerard Gardens area and what a testament to the adventure of the lad and his commitment to his old area that he'd get up out of his pit long before any of us to endure the bus ride down to St. Joey's school each morning and hang around with us in the square of the tennies and he'd sometimes stay down in his uncles in Gerard Crescent over the weekend.

I don't know anyone i've ever spoken to who has said they couldn't wait to get out, it's all been positive stuff, well they knew no differently did they, it was their lives and they were happy with their lot.

With the break up of communities and the greed culture of the 80s came the beginings of the troubles we see now. No parochial clubs, corner pubs with pool and darts teams diminishing. Ron Formby of the Scottie press put forward a very plausible case for what's gone wrong during a talk/Q&A session after one of the Gardens of Stone screenings, the audience was captavated and it would have been very hard to disagree with much he said.

The Scottie Press the longest running Community Newspaper in the country say's it all really.... people moved away from the neighbourhood to the four corners of the globe but the press maintained the links... a community paper in every sense of the word.

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Originally Posted by geo

The Scottie Press the longest running Community Newspaper in the country say's it all really.... people moved away from the neighbourhood to the four corners of the globe but the press maintained the links... a community paper in every sense of the word.

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Well said :handclap:

I remember St Andrews Gardens as i used to cut through there every day on my way to work, they have turned out pretty nice. I also remember how bad the Wavertree Gardens where, so bad in fact that they used it to film that tv show about the nuclear survivors, The place looks pretty good now, just shows what could have been done with other blocks. i like them.

We had a mate who lived in Gerard Gardens, we would go to call for him now and again, did not go there very many times as Ged and his gang would threaten us :eek::shock::) im joking ok.did know a lad there though, went there about 4 times.


My cousins lived in Caryl Gardens i think? near to the docks in the Dingle.

:) I think I may have mentioned before about the misconceptions surrounding these tenement squares which have been largely generalised as bad by those wishing to bad mouth them. It was one of the reasons behind Paul's film, to dispel the myth as it were, especially to those who he worked with who were largely from the northern posher suburbs of Sefton, they laugh at the ridiculousness of it now.

Many of the residents had relatives living in other tenement blocks, blocks that might have been perceived as rival during the build up to bonfire night or during footy matches or deserving of being swerved for the long way round when planning your route somewhere.

In actual fact, I found them all welcoming and children from the same year at school lived in many of the different ones and so hung around together afterwards.

1944 Drawings showing the plans for tenement/apartment blocks to replace Washington Street and other delapidated properties leading up to the Anglican Cathedral.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5...plan194tu8.jpg
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/a...jpg/1/w576.png


This is what was to be cleared, shown here in 1934. It was eventually cleared, 3 decades later and only subsequently built on in the late 80s.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4...ngnov34pe4.jpg
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/w...jpg/1/w598.png


By 1947, just two years later, the plans had changed again. All pics and pictures from the LRO.

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/4...947plankn0.jpg
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/a...jpg/1/w554.png



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Wonderful drawings Ged,could have been designed by Albert Speer,monumentally fascist. I reckon Liverpool had a lucky escape in ending up with what it has got. Having lived in one of those Gardens of stone,and grateful at the time, they were neo-brutal and ,though not lacking in community spirit in the early years, became places of deprivation.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/165/3...bf9804b5_o.jpg
And here`s one of my old ones before the demolishing

Yes, the way the tennies were left to wrack and ruin by the council, they'd have been coming back down again almost as soon as the Cathedral was finished in 1978. That incline to the cathedral shouldn't even be crowded by what's there now. It should be a fine plaza/public area with widely stepped up at interval to reveal that massive door under the central tower which is now somewhat hidden. Great pic too Joe.

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Originally Posted by Ged

Yes, the way the tennies were left to wrack and ruin by the council, they'd have been coming back down again almost as soon as the Cathedral was finished in 1978. That incline to the cathedral shouldn't even be crowded by what's there now. It should be a fine plaza/public area with widely stepped up at interval to reveal that massive door under the central tower which is now somewhat hidden. Great pic too Joe.

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Ged I agree. A plaza is the best idea - a public community space. A park could have been from Kings Dock right up to the main door. However, the original idea was to have the cathedral amongst the people, towering above the adjacent houses, as seen in some Spanish cities. That was what it was like until the 1970s.

Yeh Ged,
got to agree, look at the difference the steps made to the Catholic cathedral, a much improved setting!

Just found this youtube link for a ' Cook Da Books' video from the 80's - think it's filmed in Gerrard Gardens - but a few of the ex-ressies may be able to confirm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBF0I...eature=related

Yes, you are right, this was shot in November 1986 in Gerard Gardens. The tenements were demolished the following summer.

My nan was the longest resident in King Gardens ,Sara Burns .
Not many pictures of King Gardens though

I lived in soho street in the four squares, queen ann place, in the 60's. Our square was changed to cullen close. we moved not long after. I remember going to taylors fruit and veg and leeceys the newsagents:handclap:

Hi Jeahan and welcome to the forum:PDT11

Tony

Hiya Jeahan. Welcome, I take it you've seen the 4 square pics on my site then. I remember the name change to Cullen and Concorde close.

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Originally Posted by JEAHAN

I lived in soho street in the four squares, queen ann place, in the 60's. Our square was changed to cullen close. we moved not long after. I remember going to taylors fruit and veg and leeceys the newsagents:handclap:

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Hi Jeahan

My mam used to shop in Soho Street and shopped in Nellie Rimmer's Fruit and Veg, and Eddie Weighwell's butchers. I used to call into Caplans shop for sweets on my way to The Friary.

My mum lived in the 4 squares and then moved to Canterbury street where I was born. We then moved to Windsor Gardens. Rough as anything but I have great memories. I went to St Annes school opposite Gerrard Gardens and would travel all the way from Windsor gardens by foot in all weathers. I remember the fruit and veg shop - Nellie Rimmers, I believe she lives in Australia now and was over last year to visit friends. My mum gave me a copy of an A3 size poster the other week it lists all the families who lived in Harker Street during 1954. Not sure where she got it from, but I recognised loads of names on it. Does anyone out there have any pictures of Canterbuty Street, we lived in the big house on the end No 2. Thanks

Canterbury street is on my site - try the pre war and post war pages.

Please be gentle.
I've only recently found this site and have waded through this thread, honest.
I'm trying to find photos of Dingle House and Dingle Mount tenements (I found the one's on Ged's site). An Uncle lived in the tenement in Beloe street and another in Dingle Mount.
My wife's gran lived in 1A Dingle House for many years - all through the war as well with her children (including my wife's late mum) and, back in 1966, I worked in the Library there.
I'd like to find some photos to show my son as part of his family history.
There seems very little on the web.
Can anyone suggest where I might find some?
Thanks.

Hi Hillneerg, welcome to the site:nod:
I know you've looked through Ged's site, but if anyone can find the pic's you want,it's probably him!
Steve.

This group has several Dingle pictures, including all the Dingle blocks you mention.
http://www.facebook.com/photo_search...14887&view=all

Are you still in Liverpool Hillneerg as I only got a selection out of the records office, i'm sure there are more in there.

The last posting on this thread was a good few months ago but seeing as it's 35 pages long, maybe worth a look at by any newcomers that are trawling the site for anything of interest. :)

I have looked through lots of this thread and havent come across Upper Milk Street which my family lived in before 1911 and until the 1950s.

I believe that they were flats/tenements, then knocked down and rebuilt.

This address is on so many of my birth/marriage/census documentation that a picture would be amazing to see.

Has anyone got a picture or knows anything about the place i would love to hear from you.

One of my Aunties also lived in Herriet Place, which was in Kirkdale, close to Lapworth Street and before that she lived in Kew something. Kew were flats they had gas lighting, very very dark, I would imagine they would have been somewhere in L5 district.

Good luck Scousehouse (you're not from that "weirdo's" L/pool Site are you ?).

I am still looking for pictures of Exley Street, Townsend Ave Prefabs and Jack Sharpes golf course.

Scousehouse, Upper Milk st tennies, part of Highfield and Vauxhall Gardens are on my site below. They were built in the 30s though so don't know about your 1911 houses, many would have transferrred from the delapidated courts and slums to the tenements.

Ged

Thanks for that, i have spent the morning looking through lots of your pics, it brings back some fantastic memories.

I have thoroughly enjoyed the last few hours, I must tell a couple of my older relatives to have a look too.

Thanks again, keep up the good work.

I found this on upper milk street?

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=E...erpool&f=false

Tis a pleasure Scousehouse. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Ged

Tis a pleasure Scousehouse. Thank you.

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Now how about mine ?
Also Gloucester place is of interest to me. Ta Ged:PDT_Piratz_26:

I know i've tried the LRO on the prefabs and Exley because you've asked before so here's hoping some of the old pics coming to light may turn one up.

Exley Street name was changed to exley walk during the fifties.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-01/1074299946

Thanx a bunch guys.:PDT_Piratz_26: