The Beatles

The Beatles were the greatest group ever (in my own personal opinion).

Most people (including music experts and critics) will probably agree that they were great innovators and the pioneers of popular music (meaning pop and rock) as we know it. Without them, there wouldn't be anyone else! There wouldn't have been a Frank Zappa or whoever, they were the predecessors to all other popular musicians.

As for Liverpool, yes, it's true that it once was a great and world-famous city because of its role as the most important seaport in the UK and one of the major seaports in the world. However, like it or not, since its economic decline caused by the increasing importance of aviation, outside of the UK it's only famous because of The Beatles and maybe Liverpool FC nowadays. It's still a great city but in Europe and other parts of the world, most people won't know about it at all or only because of one or, at most, both of these two.

I first learned of the existence of Liverpool in connection with The Beatles when our Music teacher introduced us to them, that was when I was in about 7th grade, so I was about 13 or 14 then. Later on, through reading more about England out of personal interest, I also found out about Liverpool's great maritime history and this added to my fascination with this city.

When I attended the Beatles Convention in '88, I met other young people from various countries, such as Japan etc., but all of them were only in Liverpool because of The Beatles, none of them because of Liverpool FC, to my knowledge.

It was only during my stay in England that I found out about Liverpool FC, I had never heard about it before, probably because I've never been interested in football.

I know that some Germans know about Liverpool FC but I'm sure that for most people in Germany and other European countries, the first thing they'll associate Liverpool with and their main reason for visiting the city is or would be The Beatles.

On all my visits to Liverpool and its wonderful attractions, I've realised how much else this city has to offer and I think it's a pity that most people outside the UK don't know about this. Maybe this will change now with the Capital of Culture year and the recent developments.

Anyway, just face it: In post-war times, it was The Beatles who put Liverpool on the map.

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Originally Posted by Merseyrose

The Beatles were the greatest group ever (in my own personal opinion).

Most people (including music experts and critics) will probably agree that they were great innovators and the pioneers of popular music (meaning pop and rock) as we know it. Without them, there wouldn't be anyone else! There wouldn't have been a Frank Zappa or whoever, they were the predecessors to all other popular musicians.

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Ha,ya gotta laugh.Seen this posted elsewhere....
why did John Lennon carry a whole stack of zappa tapes round with him when travelling, lennon was a big fan of zappa he appeared on stage with yoko and sang a song 'i used to sing in the cavern in liverpool' with zappa. the beatles collection of three minute pop songs is remembered because thats exactly what they were, 3 minute pop songs, stuff that was easy to sing along to, frank was never into the commercial side of pop music .

You gotta laugh:handclap:

OK; no need for sarcasm here.

Did Zappa's music influence the music of The Beatles or John Lennon in any way? Could you tell us more about this if this was the case?

If Zappa was that great, why, do you think, didn't more people recognize his greatness back then? Surely there must have been more people who also appreciated less commercial music.

Each to their own, it's what makes the world go around. No need for comparisons as in this case there is none. :lol:

Frank Zappa, wasn't that the guy that called his daughter "Moon Unit" and his son Dweezil ?

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Originally Posted by John(Zappa)

Ha,ya gotta laugh.Seen this posted elsewhere....
why did John Lennon carry a whole stack of zappa tapes round with him

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Zappa was way after the Beatles. He was heavily influenced by British music when he started off.

Lennon may have been slightly influenced by Zappa late on, as he would have been subconsciously by others around too. The Beatles were influenced initially by black American music too, as well as traditional rock and roll.

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Originally Posted by Merseyrose

The Beatles were the greatest group ever (in my own personal opinion). Without them, there wouldn't be anyone else!
Anyway, just face it: In post-war times, it was The Beatles who put Liverpool on the map.

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I wouldn't say that there wouldn't be anyone else without them. The Beatles themselves were influenced by Elvis, Buddy Holly, (even Segovia) and a host of others. Everyone has influences so it is ridiculous to say that other acts wouldn't have been around without them. I also disagree with the idea that they put Liverpool on the map. Our two football teams put Liverpool on the map long before the Beatles came around.

As much as I love the Beatles, when a ship in nearly every port in the world once bore the name 'Liverpool', I think it more likely that this would be where a lot of people would have once known Liverpool from.

Also as the 2nd city of the British Empire one time and so eminent in politics (Gladstone), writing (Monserrat) and the many many firsts in medicine and world inventions/discoveries.

Babe Ruth visited Liverpool from the USA especially to see his world renowned sporting counterpart in our very own Dixie Dean in the 1920s and of course we all know LFC's pedigree from the European finals of the 1960s,70s,80s+

The longest battle of WWII 'The Atlantic' was also operated from Liverpool's citadel

The swinging 60s must have been a real pleasure in liverpool what with the docks the way they were, Lfc's promotion then fa cup 65, ECWC 66 and Evertons FAC 66 and parading the world cup around in the 66 charity shield with Wilson and Hunt.

The Beatles were a catalyst to all this in the 60s and just further enhanced and promoted our city. It's just a pity that our tourist board never capitalised on them in the 1970s like they should have done.

The vikings came, knocked down a forrest and named it Aintree ( One Tree )
Do they get the credit:unibrow:
Then King John said be a city, let me put ships here to attack Ireland:eek:
Slave traders built the city
USA-The shipping between there and here.
Irish, Welsh, Scots, Italians, scandanavians, etc etc coming here.
The Airport, M62 and tunnels

Im getting bored now, who put us on the map? I thought it was the Ordinance Survey :)

I like the Beatles, much more than a 3 min pop song group. Very talented lads. I prefer their later stuff myself. If you like the music then enjoy it.

Im off to stick Elvis on:handclap: Then Madness:PDT11

@Mark R: You're right, every artist is influenced by others before him/her and so were The Beatles. However, whereas their predecessors played rock'n'roll and skiffle, they were the pioneers of pop as such.

Speaking of putting Liverpool on the map, I was looking at it from the perspective of people outside the UK. Liverpool probably is very famous in the UK, and rightfully so, but go over to Germany and ask people whether they've heard of Liverpool or what they associate with it and I bet most of them will say "The Beatles". I'm also quite sure that the same goes for other continental European countries. Older generations may also remember Liverpool as a great port city but you really don't hear this too often.

I often go on telling people about Liverpool and how wonderful it is but most people either immediately say "The Beatles" or just don't associate anything with Liverpool at all. Moreover, I've hardly ever met any German who's been to Liverpool, sadly enough.

So, I think, for people not interested in football and to European societies at large, The Beatles did put Liverpool on the map. In the 60s, more people went nuts about music than about some foreign football club and I think this will always be the case - music will reach bigger crowds than football does.

Well i have met lots of German people in Liverpool over the years, so thay are coming here.

Like I say, as a mega Beatles fan, i'm quite happy with that viewpoint Merseyrose. It's rather taken for granted by some who think they should all still live in a two up two down semi in the Dingle. They bring far more into the local economy than some of the bashers would care to admit.

We wouldn't have had the great Rock n Roll music that we have had over the last Forty odd years if it wasn't for the Beatles. They were a tremendous influence over many a latterday rocker. They were great, end of !

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Originally Posted by Gnomie

Well i have met lots of German people in Liverpool over the years, so thay are coming here.

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Yes, I know - unfortunately I never seem to meet them here in Germany. :sad:

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Originally Posted by John(Zappa)

...
why did John Lennon carry a whole stack of zappa tapes round with him when travelling,

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Zappa initially copied the Yardbirds in music style and many of their songs.

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Originally Posted by Ged

As much as I love the Beatles, when a ship in nearly every port in the world once bore the name 'Liverpool', I think it more likely that this would be where a lot of people would have once known Liverpool from.

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Mexico has a group of Department Stores called, in English, " The Port of Liverpool"

If you go to www.liverpool.com.mx you can get an idea of the Liverpool group, the corporate info is in English. They have about 43 large upscale department stores throughout Mexico, the first originating in Mexico City 160 years ago. The name came from the fact that originally most the goods were imported from the UK via Liverpool, probably arriving by ship at the Mexican Gulf port of Veracruz.

The full name of the group is El Puerto de Liverpool (The Port of Liverpool) but everyone now refers to the stores as Liverpool (and with a Mexican accent it comes out as "Leeverr-pool").

These days they sell just about everything: furniture, jewellery, perfumes, clothes, shoes, kitchenware, stoves/fridges etc, books, wines, sweets, delicatessen, restaurant, electronics, toys, glassware, cutlery, crockery, linens, sports goods, motorbikes.
It's all good quality products

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Originally Posted by Gnomie

Well i have met lots of German people in Liverpool over the years, so thay are coming here.

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Lots of Germans were in the Penny Lane area over the Mathew St festival period last weekend. Many visited the Beatles exhibition at St Barnabas Church where Paul McCartney sang in the choir and also where his brother was married.

web site

Beatles Weekend at St Barnabas Penny Lane? August 2008 #2

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Originally Posted by Waterways

Zappa initially copied the Yardbirds in music style and many of their songs.

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Oh dear, wrong again:PDT_Xtremez_42:
Zappa never copied anyone. He was influenced by Weburn,Stravinsky,Varese to name but a few.:PDT11

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Originally Posted by John(Zappa)

Oh dear, wrong again:PDT_Xtremez_42:
Zappa never copied anyone. He was influenced by Weburn,Stravinsky,Varese to name but a few.:PDT11

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I saw him say that on the TV only last week.

I was in Hamburg a few years ago (a Beatle city if ever there was one). When some Germans I met knew where I was from none of them mentioned the Beatles - they mentioned LFC...Music does have a big following worldwide - but I think football has an even bigger following - certainly in South America and most (if not all) of Europe.
I'm glad you mentioned that list Ged - spot on. Especially the shipping and Gladstone/Monserrat & Dixie Dean/Babe Ruth connections. We've also had some of the best comedians ever.

I was vaguely aware of Frank Zappa - someone from some 60s hippy/troggy band I thought ?? Ha! :unibrow:
I'd heard the name but I couldn't have told you who he played with or what he sounds like. (I still wouldn't know him if I fell over him and I wouldn't know which is his music) - I admit to being a bit single minded and only pay attention to my own kind of music which I follow. I have been totally oblivious to anything else. So, when JZ first came to Yo I had to Google to see who is this Frank Zappa :)

Not a criticism of Zappa you understand - I am just saying that he is not so famous to everyone :)

The Beatles - well whether you loved them or loathed them you couldn't escape them - Beatle mania was in your face and no one in this world would have to Google to find out who were the Beatles. :neutral:

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Originally Posted by Ged

As much as I love the Beatles, when a ship in nearly every port in the world once bore the name 'Liverpool', I think it more likely that this would be where a lot of people would have once known Liverpool from.

Also as the 2nd city of the British Empire one time and so eminent in politics (Gladstone), writing (Monserrat) and the many many firsts in medicine and world inventions/discoveries.

Babe Ruth visited Liverpool from the USA especially to see his world renowned sporting counterpart in our very own Dixie Dean in the 1920s and of course we all know LFC's pedigree from the European finals of the 1960s,70s,80s+

The longest battle of WWII 'The Atlantic' was also operated from Liverpool's citadel

The swinging 60s must have been a real pleasure in liverpool what with the docks the way they were, Lfc's promotion then fa cup 65, ECWC 66 and Evertons FAC 66 and parading the world cup around in the 66 charity shield with Wilson and Hunt.

The Beatles were a catalyst to all this in the 60s and just further enhanced and promoted our city. It's just a pity that our tourist board never capitalised on them in the 1970s like they should have done.

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Great list, Ged. We wuz the greatest back then, and its wonderful to see Liverpool's current renaissance. I have to say that, as I believe, I have mentioned here on a number of occasions, whenever I mention to people here that I come from Liverpool (okay maybe a number of them are of a certain generation), they say, "Oh, were the Beatles came from. Did you know them?" It's then that I tell them I have a copy of the Beatles signatures from 1962, and if I tell the factual story, I say I didn't get it personally but obtained it from someone who got it from the boys at the Cavern. It amuses them to hear that Paul McCartney used to be the paperboy for my uncle, Billy Matchett, the Liverpool comedian, at his house Vaudevilla, on Booker Avenue... and at that time Uncle Bill was more famous than Paul. I have a newscutting from the Fifties in which I am, as a lad, going up the steps to a transatlantic plane. It appeared in an article by George Harrison, the Echo columnist, who wrote it following a tip from Uncle Bill.

Chris

just thought I would add that whenever I tell the spanish here that I am from Liverpool or yes leeverpol as they say, most of them do say ah Beatles although I have had the odd few mention the football team mostly cos of the spanish players now, one of my good spanish friends is an avid liverpool football fan!:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

Here are the Beatles walking down Paradise Street.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/6298/dsc0371pc1.jpg

Good photo of the Beatles :) :)

Taken in London that originally, outside the BBC offices.

I think it is also on the wall in HMV Bold Street on the stairs to the lower floor.

Have any of you J.L or Beatles fans bought the new Lennon biography by Philip Norman ?
In the book it mentions he nearly had a sexual encounter with his Mother ? Very strange.?
So is the book a must read for Beatles/Lennon fans or is it one to avoid?

I'm a kid who became aware of music in the early fifties, grew up with american music on AFN and Luxemburg,towards the mid fifties we were getting some home grown talent, Ronnie Hilton,Dickie Valentine ,Frankie Vaughan to mention some of the few. Then Skiffle and Rock and Roll burst on the scene,again it was the Americans who dominated the airwaves,we had Lonnie Donegan,Tommy Steele, Russ Hamilton and a few others who made it big over here ,but the Yanks were the ones we wanted to hear. come the end of the fifties we had Marty Wilde, Johnny and the Pirates and .....Cliff Richard (yes ,He was a rocker in the beginning ,listen to Move It) .Billy Fury came on the scene and he was very good,but when you were abroad there names did not mean a thing. I never had anybody say "you're from Liverpool!! Fantastic!" Never ,that is, until the Beatles appeared . Talk to any man who was a young sailor in the mid to late 60's,if they were from Liverpool they were treated like pop stars. New York , Chicago, Detroit ,New Orleans ,Singapore ,Sidney ,Boulogne , Hamburg,anywhere in the world,a Scouse accent and a good head of hair was your passport to paradise. The name Liverpool on the stern of our ships did'nt mean very much until those four lads shook up the whole world with the Mersey sound.

The supposed revelations come from a certain Dr Janov who was the author of the primal scream. One to avoid in my opinion

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Originally Posted by ItsaZappathing

Have any of you J.L or Beatles fans bought the new Lennon biography by Philip Norman ?
In the book it mentions he nearly had a sexual encounter with his Mother ? Very strange.?
So is the book a must read for Beatles/Lennon fans or is it one to avoid?

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good question for Ged me thinks ?:PDT_Piratz_26:

Philip Norman is berated by Beatles fans as a cash-in merchant with spurious claims with no foundations, which cannot be backed up (or in fact denied) as the only one able to do so absolutely is no longer with us. It was once claimed Lennon also had a homosexual encounter with Brian Epstein in Spain, in fact Cavern DJ Bob Wooller got his lights punched out at Macca's 21st for deriding JL with this insinuation.

If you read about Lennon, it seems he was in fact insecure, even in his own ability (which is mad) and dominated by strong women for most of his life, mum Julia, mainly his aunt Mimi and later, manipulated (and allowed to be) by Yoko. She even shoved him off in 1974 to have an affair with their secretary May Pang then summoned him back when she wanted - very controlling. The only none female dominant relationship in his life, with shrinking violet Cynthia, didn't last.

His aggressive hard man image was nothing more than a front - he wasn't a 2 up 2 down poverty stricken street urchin but lived in Allerton/Woolton. Paddy's right about Dr Arthur Janov (who like the Maharishi - also cashed in on having someone famous amongst his erm 'patients') In 1970 JL underwent regressive hypnosis, aka the primal scream and the torment and anger it brought out in him transferrred to the dour mood of his songwriting as can be heard on the JL/Plastic Ono band album of 1970.

I like Paddy's Well well well title on his posting, JL fans will know it's one of his songs from that era.

Well said, Ged! With regard to biographies: I usually avoid those which set out to discredit someone whom I admire. I think it's really bad when such books are published after the death of a famous person and he is no longer around to defend himself.

I recently read Cynthia Lennon's book "John" and was very impressed by it. Of course, such books are subjective and we have to be discerning, but I am inclined to believe what she wrote as it was totally devoid of bitterness. She showed John as a man with some faults but also some very good points, just like all of us. I could hardly put the book down and it didn't alter my opinion of John Lennon in any way; it just added new dimensions to it.

Yes, agreed. I also have Cynthia's first autobiography called 'A twist of lennon' (she later became Cynthia Twist and of course is a play on words with a twist of lemon so I thought that maybe it was a hint that it was going to be bitter. It was a good account of their relationship and I don't particularly think that JL gave to omuch time to Julian (which he later freely admitted and made up for with Sean which must've gutted Julian really)

I thought her follow up book 'John' was going to reveal a shadier side, since after his death, she may have felt more able to say some things that she wouldn't whilst he was alive, but actually, it too is quite still loving of him which shows Cynthia up to be a good character really. Well she was a posh un' from the Dee side of Wirral ;)


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I have read these revelations and they do not amount too much, you would find more incest in Hamlet. I think that from time to time these things will come along. I think Johns policy was to be open about his life in anticipation of such things. Jim Morrison of the Doors is another such victim of this trend people want this sort of stuff there's a market out there. And lets face it, it is farcical I don't want to read Johnthan Kings life story but I wouldn' mind a peep at his police record. Lennon was a decent man who did an awful lot for the peace movements of the world.

I agree with you, Paddy. The dead should be allowed to rest in peace. It's wrong to tarnish their memory by publishing things which may or may not be true. As you say, John Lennon did a lot for world peace. He should be remembered for that as well as for his music.

Speaking of the Beatles, I've just seen Pete Best on television. He gave a short interview and his band played a song from their latest album. He's another person who is not at all bitter about what happened in the past. I visited the Casbah during my last trip to Liverpool and was shown around by Pete's brother, Rory. I was the only one there that day and he spent a lot of time showing me photos and answering questions. They are a really nice family.

One of our band members mates is Roag best. He is the son of a relationship that Mona Best had with the Beatles roadie Neil Aspinall. Roag makes no secret of that and neither should he. I've been to the Casbah a few times, the first time during a magical mystery tour set up on JL's 37th birthday Oct 9th 1977 as part of the first ever Liverpool Beatles convention at Mr Pickwicks.

One thing is for sure, If you brought a book out about the Beatles you'd be sure to cash in simply because it must go out to jounalists, fans and critics worldwide just to see if there's anything juicy, new or worthwhile in it even just to give it a rating.

I did start writing a day by day diary account of them back in 1976 with info gleaned from Abbey Road and other sources but after running to hundreds of handwritten pages, (no pc back then - just a lecky typewriter to tidy up my scribblings), it got left by the wayside and eventually Mark Lewisohn, who I once came 2nd (or maybe 3rd) to in a Beatles brain quiz, pipped me to it. I think Mark is the font of all Beatles knowledge when it comes to their public appearances and recording details and I highly recommend his books on the subject.

Thanks for clearing up that y'all.
I know what you mean about autobiogs. Zappa has loads of biogs about him and there's only one REAL autobiog on him.

Anyway thank you all for all your replies on this. Very interesting stuff.:handclap:

I'd like to read Cynthia's first book which you mentioned. I only recently found out about Roag Best and I think it's good that Pete and Rory simply talk of him as their brother, which is as it should be. I really wish you'd managed to publish your diary of the Beatles as I am sure it would have been interesting. As you said, it wasn't easy before we had computers, but perhaps you'd consider writing it in the future?

Thanks LBF but the trouble is, Mr Lewisohn has been there and done that now. I'll have to get my thinking cap on about a slant that hasn't been done before but I think if I thought for the next dacade I'd have trouble finding what hasn't already been written about.

Incidentally, Bill Harry of the MerseyBeat publication fame says he didn't do too well out of his book sales which is very surprising since he's been there with them through thick and thin from teenage rag arses to world domination.

Maybe a tax fiddle ;)