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I totally agree. Also, some people will believe what they want to believe, and discard things that go against it. There's a name for doing that, and I can't remember what it is.
Sure, it'd be great if the mummy/tomb story was true, but I'd rather have fact over folklore.
Thanks again for sharing your finds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fortinian
Most stuff on-line isn't to be relied upon.
Who and where are the sources?
Wikipedia (good name, because it is Wicked) is a compilation of anonymous entries which anybody can alter.
It's frightening how it's becoming the first source for most people.
Which Local Historians do you give a wide berth to?
At least you know who to blame if a particular book has a named author.
None of us are perfect.
I like to find original sources, and will never repeat what somebody else has said without checking it for myself.
The sources I used were the:Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipG
Oxford Dictionary of National Biography - a subscription only service that can be accesed using a Liverpool City Library Card. It contains the Biographys of Britains greatest men and women, written by experts in their field - most who are respected academics.
19th Century British Library Newspapers - again a subscription only service. It contains scanned pdf's of many newspapers from around Britain. I.e. electronic facsimiles of the actual newspapers themselves. Because they are in pdf format I can conduct word searches which look for the shape of the letters that appear in the search. For example I searched 'William McKenzie, 1851' and found nothing. I then searched 'William Mackenzie, 1851' and found the newspapers that mentioned him. The software is so sensitive that even the slightly different shape of McKenzie and Mackenzie can be detected.
If you want to verfiy what I said at the original sources then feel free to check:
http://www.oxforddnb.com/
http://gale.cengage.com/
If you have access then feel free to check my findings.
I don't understand why you are so defensive, there are many good historians but there is also a significant number who earn their crust from re-hashing the work of others and undertaking little historial research themselves. If I have offended you, I apologise.
I don't understand why you think I'm defensive.
I don't want to argue with you.
I've been reading microfilms all afternoon.
You've done a cracking job on that one Fortinian. I wish I'd managed to come up with some of that info when I wrote my piece on Mckenzie's tomb for my book. Don't worry though, I didn't say it actually was haunted. I hope I will not be one of the local historians who you give a wide berth to as I've done my best to include all my refs. Mind you, sounds like you should have a crack at article or book writing yourself.
As we know, even newspapers can't be guaranteed to report facts either ;)
Hi Fortinian.
Thanks for your PM.
I did send a detailed reply, but I can't seem to find it now.
I couldn't figure out if you were for Local Historians or not.
(You should be included with them, anyway. :PDT11)
Tom Slemen obviously isn't a LH, but he knows what to do to make a penny or two.
My major point was about Wikipedia (which you didn't pick up on).
And I'm genuinely interested in which Local Historians you give a wide berth to.
(Do we agree?)
Sorry if I seemed defensive - I didn't mean to.
How true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
Ok Miss Z's just came in with the following info from Frank Carlyle...
There's been xrays performed on the pyramid showing Mackenzie sat in an upright position.
Not saying this isn't true as I've spoken to Frank Carlyle on E-mail before but I don't believe that standard Xray can go through that amount of stone and what would it produce? Doesn't X-ray have to only work on certain things for it to actually produce a picture?Quote:
Originally Posted by John(Zappa)
Wouldn't it be microgravity that would only work?
"microwaves" ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadfael
Sorry Cad, even microgravity would be useless to tell if William Mackenzie is buried there as
"The Microgravity technique in the context of civil engineering consists of measuring minute variations in the gravitational pull of the Earth and interpreting the presence of voids and cavities from these readings."
At most (if at all considering the moument is above ground) it would just tell us if the monument is hollow or not.
As for the x-rays, when were they done and who payed for all that specialist equipment and technicians? In the course of my research this is the first time i've heard of these x-rays.
I've been doing some more work,
someone asked for a picture of him - i've got one here
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3117/...d6910d.jpg?v=0
Here is an up close shot of the cartouch above the portal. The motto reads: 'Always Faithful'.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3150/...f2500b.jpg?v=0
The other interesting part of the story (Slemen's I mean) concerns thirty-three bodies that were found preserved in salt in a cellar in Liverpool. This story is true, much to my surprise. There was a Scottish connection but non with William Mackenzie. Two men were found guilty of grave robbing, Rev. James Macgowan and a man called William Gillespie alias. John Henderson.
The bodies were found to come from the parish workhouse graveyard which was adjacent to the school run by Rev. Macgowan. The bodies would have been worth up to £500 on the medical blackmarket in Glasgow where they were headed for.
That sounds familiar.Quote:
Originally Posted by fortinian
I'd read that years before Slemen came on the scene.
Hope Street, wasn't it?
Can't remember salt being mentioned, but that might just be my memory.
You're quite right, it was Hope Street. The crime caused some national coverage, especially among the medical profession who were trying to make it easier for bodies to be used legally in dissections.
The casks were labeled 'bitter salts' and had apparently been under Mcgowans house for at least three months before being shipped to George's Dock for transport to Glasgow.
I'd be interested to find out where you first heared or read this story!
[QUOTE=fortinian;138318]You're quite right, it was Hope Street. The crime caused some national coverage, especially among the medical profession who were trying to make it easier for bodies to be used legally in dissections.
The casks were labeled 'bitter salts' and had apparently been under Mcgowans house for at least three months before being shipped to George's Dock for transport to Glasgow.
I'd be interested to find out where you first heared or read this story![/QUOTE]
It's in Richard Whittington-Egan's "Tales of Liverpool: Murder, Mayhem & Mystery" (1985), pp 15 to 19.
I've got two copies, if you want to buy one.
This is one of the stories told on the 'Shiverpool' tour. They show you the house where it took place. I forget the number but the house is more towards the Everyman end rather than the Mount st end.
I had heard the tale before.
it was number 8 at the time, although I'm not sure if its been renumbered since.
Cheers for the offer, I already have the major RWE books - I don't know why I didn't pick up on that first! I feel a bit dumb now.
It will have been renumbered.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteH
At first street numbers ran consecutively down one side of the road and carried on down the other, so the highest number was opposite number 1.
Besides, in the 1820s when this case happened there weren't many houses in Hope Street, and most of them were at the Mount Pleasant end.
So good old Tom had just rehashed a true murder tale to enhance his 'ghost' books? Now that is strange?
I read about this a few years ago there was nothing to say how the bodys were disposed of or what the outcome was.
To be honest, i'm not incredibly bothered about Tom rehashing this tale... it's there in RWE, it's available to anyone with a library card in the LRO and it is a genuine grusome tale.
However, I am bothered about the bad name he gives to William Makenzie who one one of the most eminent men of his day and is now considered to be little more than a greedy, corrupt, evil and diabolic gambler all thanks to the lies of one hack writer. We should be proud that Mackenzie is buried in Liverpool.
The wikipedia article gives a good idea about his life and his enromous contribution to the railway networks of Europe.
Wikipedia article here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEBnqlCbUwY
:lol: Priceless.
Here is the actual inscription on the Pyramid, seems that William, Mary and Sarah are there in a post-mortem m?nage ? trois.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3274/...6de6eb.jpg?v=0
It Reads:
In the Vault Beneath
lie the remains of
William Mackenzie of Newbie
Dumfrishire, Esquire
Who died 29th October 1851
Aged 57 years
Also, Mary his wife, who died
Who died 19th December 1838
Aged 48 years
and Sarah, his second wife
Who died 9th December 1867
Aged 60 Years
This monument was erected by his
Brother Edward
As a token of love and affection
A.D. 1868
The memory of the just is blessed
Prov. 10. v7
He is listed as 'of Newbie' because shortly before his death he bought a number of big estates around the country - even though he still considered Liverpool as his base of operation.
A little clip for those interested in the Tomb can be found on the Xmas Abba Magic night.
http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/chi...arty-time.html
It gets better as it goes on but unfortunately you lot have gotta go to the Xmas Abba magic doo to see the whole thing.Sorry. Not allowed to put full version up (yet).
Its good and am not gonna spoil it for you:PDT11
Is that footage real or just for dramatic purposes? Pretty cool either way.
If it is real may I ask who undertook it, paid for it and just why they did it.
It sure is real. Real good too.Quote:
Originally Posted by fortinian
All I can tell you for the moment is...You wouldn't believe whats inside!!!
And Frankie Carlyle and my brother have something to do with it.
:PDT_Piratz_26:
Sorry I can't be of much help but I am sworn to secrecy:PDT_Xtremez_42:
Thanks Zappa. I understand that it's secret at the moment but please be sure to let us know about it after it has happened.
To be honest I'm still a bit skeptical about the body inside... but stranger things have happened.
Your welcome FortinianQuote:
Originally Posted by fortinian
Stranger things sure have happened. This you won't believe:PDT_Xtremez_42:
Thanks for that close-up pic,I always wondered exactly what it was. You can't quite see from the street. Is that his family motto?Quote:
Originally Posted by fortinian
Dave.
I'm no heraldic expert...Quote:
Is that his family motto?
From what I can find out about it is that it contains some things that are typical of the many 'Mackenzie' family arms: such as the Stags Head. Also, you can just make out what looks like fire beneath the crown at the top of the coat of arms. It's actually another typical 'Mackenzie' image, especially on the clan badge. It is meant to be a pile of rocks on-fire and usually (though not in this case) has the motto: "I shine not burn".
The motto is also a typical 'Mackenzie' motto although it is usually "Daonnan D?leas" (Scottish Gaelic, meaning "Always Faithful").
Because William Mackenzie was not of a noble family i'm guessing he was granted his arms during his life-time. The human figure is unusual to appear on a coat-of-arms whereas the shells (escallops) are quite common and usually have some sort of nautical link (possibly his work on canals and docks?).
I went past this Tomb yesterday and was disgusted by the state of the place.
What the hell is going on. Why has this been left like this ?
Surely something should be done about it!!
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...f/DSC01008.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...f/DSC01007.jpg
Well what do you think folks ?
My next question would be "do people of Liverpool really care about Mc's Tomb " ?
Obviously not,looking at the state it's in,though I think a compulsory purchase order, was made by the council,recently,after some years of wrangling with the former owner! I remember the church still being in use,in the early 70's,when I lived round the corner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsaZappathing
I'm not sure this is entirely fair. St Andrews Church is undergoing a massive re-development. Structually the building was in appalling shape and serious work has to be done on it, the site has been lagrely cleared of dangerous items underfoot ready for the heritage open days in September.Quote:
Originally Posted by wsteve55
As for Mackenzie's tomb... it's in pretty good shape really. A bit overgrown but what gravestone over 100 years old isn't?
Also, what could the 'people of Liverpool' really do about the tomb? The land is now owned by the council, Mackenzies tomb is not only a landmark but a civil monument to a very important man. The council would not let it disappear.
We must remember that historically the people of Liverpool did bugger all when St Andrews needed a new roof... it was Edward Mackenzie, William's out-of-town brother who paid for the debt of the church in 1868.
I did reply to Zaps question on another forum that the church and grounds is undergoing restoration so no need to worry, it won't fall down.
Well, certainly a lot of Liverpool people are fascinated by this tomb, but as Fortinian says, what can liverpool people do about it ? I would like to see it spruced up a bit, it definately does attract a lot of interest. The tomb is included in part of the Shiverpool tour.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsaZappathing
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...f/DSC01008.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by ItsaZappathing
fortinian wrote:
I haven't read through the history of posts on this thread, but has anyone considered the 17 year old difference between him dying, and the creation of his tomb? Would seem unlikely to support the current myth of him sitting upright, or being above ground for that matter.Quote:
"Pevesner, in his book on archetecture of Lancashire, when describing St Andrews Chruch, Rodney Street, mentions the tomb and says McKenzie died in 1851 and the tomb was built in 1868 - but is effectively a paraphrase of Picton."
Instead of getting them very useless stupid Lambanana things everywhere we should of had more of the cities "important landmarks" repaired first.Quote:
Originally Posted by lindylou