St James Church dig up 2,500 bodies, including slaves

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10-19-2008
taffy

Slaves and St James churchyard burials

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kev

THOUSANDS of bodies could be exhumed by the Church of England under a project to help bring a historic Liverpool church back to life.

The Diocese of Liverpool cannot afford to renovate the historic St James Church in the shadow of the city?s Anglican Cathedral.

But it says it could bankroll a redevelopment by building a three-storey office and apart-ment block in the grounds.

That could mean having to disturb the last resting place of those buried at the church, including many former slaves.

Interestingly the Diocese of Liverpool's web site makes no mention of slave graves. Where did this urban myth come from?

The Diocese of Liverpool | The Church of England
10-19-2008
ChrisGeorge

Quote:

Originally Posted by taffy

Interestingly the Diocese of Liverpool's web site makes no mention of slave graves. Where did this urban myth come from?

The Diocese of Liverpool | The Church of England

Hi taffy

It seems very doubtful to me that there could be many "slave graves"--if any--at St. James's. As we have discussed, very few slaves came to Liverpool, the vast bulk having been delivered to British colonies in the West Indies rather than coming to England. As you said, if there are any graves of blacks there, it would seem more likely that they may be graves of servants.

All the best

Chris
10-19-2008
PhilipG

Quote:

Originally Posted by taffy

Interestingly the Diocese of Liverpool's web site makes no mention of slave graves. Where did this urban myth come from?
The Diocese of Liverpool | The Church of England

From the first entry in this thread, because I'd never heard it before. :PDT_Piratz_26:

It's so easy to make gullible people believe anything.
10-19-2008
fortinian

Turns out there is an element of truth to this tale;

Check out Friends of St James Church Toxteth and you will find a list of registers of baptisms of 'negros' in St James Toxteth.

Although most of the records just list 'negro' there are a few 'mulattos' and at least one indian but there is only one mention of slavery:

(A negro) Was Baptised; With The Consent; Approbation Of His Master Thomas Aspinall Esq.

So at least one slave was baptised there - so church certainly does seem to have links with the slave population, freed or otherwise.

There is however no mention of burials at the church, if I get the chance I might have a look at the St James records myself and see what I can find.

The full transcript of records is here St James Toxteth Website
10-19-2008
taffy

Quote:

Originally Posted by fortinian

Turns out there is an element of truth to this tale;

Check out Friends of St James Church Toxteth and you will find a list of registers of baptisms of 'negros' in St James Toxteth.

Although most of the records just list 'negro' there are a few 'mulattos' and at least one indian but there is only one mention of slavery:

(A negro) Was Baptised; With The Consent; Approbation Of His Master Thomas Aspinall Esq.

So at least one slave was baptised there - so church certainly does seem to have links with the slave population, freed or otherwise.

There is however no mention of burials at the church, if I get the chance I might have a look at the St James records myself and see what I can find.

The full transcript of records is here St James Toxteth Website

I suspect the negro James Thomas baptised 1792 at St James was more a servant than a slave. Ownership of slaves living in England has been abolished in England about 30 years earlier. The term Master was a commonly used to describe the employer & employee relationship. It does not imply ownership as such.

Such negro baptisms would have been fairly common in Liverpool in the last quarter of the 18th C. Many slaves fought for England during the American War of Independance and were effectively granted their freedom. Many chose to live in Canada eg Nova Scotia but they had the right to live in England.
10-19-2008
taffy

Friends of St James Church, Toxteth

Just checked out the Friends of St James Toxteth web site mentioned in an earlier message

Friends of St James Church Toxteth

I believe this group is now defunct.
10-19-2008
Cadfael

Am visiting the church in the next few weeks via a contact so armed with my camera, I will take lots of pictures and report back on the interior. :PDT11
10-19-2008
fortinian

Of course Taffy you are right. I didn't really know about the Somersett Case in the 1770s which effectively made it illegal for anyone to be a slave on Englands soil. So I don't know where this idea of actual slaves has come from.

I think this is just one of those many Liverpool rumours that have a root in fact but branch out to a whole canopy of historial confusion.
10-20-2008
ChrisGeorge

Quote:

Originally Posted by taffy

I suspect the negro James Thomas baptised 1792 at St James was more a servant than a slave. Ownership of slaves living in England has been abolished in England about 30 years earlier. The term Master was a commonly used to describe the employer & employee relationship. It does not imply ownership as such.

Such negro baptisms would have been fairly common in Liverpool in the last quarter of the 18th C. Many slaves fought for England during the American War of Independance and were effectively granted their freedom. Many chose to live in Canada eg Nova Scotia but they had the right to live in England.

Hi taffy

Thanks, taffy. Although I do not know the full facts of the St. James's church internments or St. James cemetery burials of blacks, one of my areas of interest has been blacks in the War of 1812. I also know that, as you factually say, blacks did fight for the British during the American War of Independence. Indeed as mentioned in an article that I wrote, George, Christopher T. ?Mirage of Freedom: African Americans in the War of 1812, ? Maryland Historical Magazine, Vol. 91, No. 4 (Winter 1996): 427-450, during the Revolution, Lord Dunmore, the deposed governor of Virginia, offered freedom to escaped slaves and they fought for him in what was termed an "Ethiopian Regiment."

Similarly during the War of 1812 some 3,000 to 5,000 former slaves were transported out of the Chesapeake, largely to Halifax, Nova Scotia, and some 200 men were trained as "Colonial Marines" fighting with the British in actions in spring to fall 1814 in the Chesapeake. These latter men were later rewarded with land in Trinidad and their descendents live today in three "company towns" in Trinidad. See The Corps of Colonial Marines, research by John McNish Weiss.

All the best

Chris
10-20-2008
fortinian

This is really a facinating thread.

Thanks ChrisGeorge and Taffy.
10-25-2008
Cadfael

Wanting to find out whether this story was tripe from the local rag (as usual), I contacted the new vicar and offered to design and promote a website on the plight of St James. With that, and with interest in what lay in the bell tower, I was invited down to the church today to be given full access by the Vicar.

The vicar is not requesting any further tours because of the condition of the whole church. Today was at my own risk and only because I had been in and out of bell chambers for 25 years. He has not yet seen the bell chamber himself and was happy for me to show him around!

We also went down in to the cellar system in which the night vision on the camera came in handy.

As usual, the local rag got it wrong. At this stage, all ideas are being considered, from digging up the bodies to just rafting over the entire site and building an extension to the church on one side.

It is a lovely lovely church and I only wish I could own it myself!

Reaching the tower was by a new set of wooden steps (there had been a fire in the tower at some point), followed by two rather shaky ladders and then up in to the clock room and bell frame. There appears to be a totally unused bell frame with a single bell (about 13cwt - no inscription) but it was very good to see inside such a rare place.

There were lots of memorials inside the church, some dedicated to slave traders!!

I will issue more pictures once the website is up and running, again please don't pester the vicar for a visit as it won't happen, but I have no problems in sharing my pictures so you can all have a nose - feel free to pass them on but they are copyright of me so permission if you want to use them elsewhere.

Cad.

http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/q...Picture127.jpg

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10-26-2008
Kev Keegan

Cheers for the pics Cad :PDT_Piratz_26:
10-26-2008
robbo176

excellent photos Cad :PDT_Piratz_26:
10-26-2008
anonymouse

Interesting pics, Cad, thank you.

To go off topic for a mo', just as as a matter of interest, does anyone know the significance of the 'rabbit'(?) on the church bell tower? There's a polar bear on the building on the corner of Prescot Road /Sheil Road in similar style.

Anon
10-26-2008
burkhilly

Great Photos - thanks for posting.

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