What about the cross in Woolton Village ?
Will have to try and post a photo of it (if no one does it before me!)
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What about the cross in Woolton Village ?
Will have to try and post a photo of it (if no one does it before me!)
An old postcard view.Quote:
Originally Posted by PIMO31
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4037/...59f9994fc7.jpg
When I photographed Cronton Cross (post No. 57), I'd intended to also photograph Rainhill Cross, but I didn't have the time. Now through the wonders of Google Streetview, here it is:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&so...=12,41.09,,0,5
Someone already has this on Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7738503@N05/1322077611
Very fine, Marky. :handclap:Quote:
Originally Posted by marky
One of the ancient Liverpool crosses was called St Patrick's Cross does anyone have access to any drawings of it? There are some intriguing traditions in Liverpool associated with St Patrick that may have originated in the 10th Century settlement of the area by Vikings from Ireland rather than St Patrick himself. Here is a webpage about this Irish Viking settlement:-
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/-sczsteve/
Thomas Burke discusses St Patrick's Cross in his "Catholic History of Liverpool":-
"By this time the Jesuits had built a chapel in Lumber Street, Old Hall Street, and dedicated it to the Blessed Virgin under the title of St. Mary. It was in the fitness of things that the site was chosen. Hard by was the pre-Reformation foundation in Chapel Street, while in the immediate neighbourhood was the spot where a well-founded tradition says St. Patrick preached on his way to the Isle of Man.
In Marybone, within a few yards of the present church of Holy Cross, a water fountain marks the place on which stood for centuries St. Patrick's Cross, as marked on old maps of the town, and which was in existence as late as 1775. In an Act of Parliament passed in 1771, to secure the repair of the road between Preston and Liverpool, the cross is specially named, because the street now called Marybone was then 'the road to Ormskirk'.
The neighbourhood possessed other traditions of Ireland's patron saint, the street between Cheapside and Hatton Garden bearing the name of St. Patrick's Hill."
http://www.archive.org/stream/cathol...0burk_djvu.txt
Blue
Hello Blue
I might be wrong but I think a connection of the Irish Vikings to St. Patrick's Cross does not seem too likely. The cross is probably of a later date. I'll do some digging and come back with some information on the cross hopefully.
Cheers
Chris :PDT_Aliboronz_24:
Hmm... the Viking settlement of the Northwest was in the tenth century, St Patrick died in the first half of the fifth century so I imagine a cult would be well established.
The Vikings settling in the NW would have probably been christianised, probably with Celtic Christianity which but a lot of store in Saints and holy men, so there could be a connection.
On another note: here is a strange cross.
Attachment 21311
This is built into the wall at the end of St Michael's Road in the Hamlet. I'd like to know more about it.
Blue, scroll down to see the memorial that currently stands at where St. Patrick was supposed to have preached before leaving for Ireland.
(sorry link won't work)
Go to www.scottiepress.org
then click archive, then click Holy Cross parish.
Hi FortinianQuote:
Originally Posted by fortinian
I have no reason to think that the cross in St. Michaels in the Hamlet is genuinely old. It seems of a piece with the Victorian Gothic in which the community was built, or perhaps with the supposed "castle" in Cain's Fields that Robert Griffiths' History of the Royal and Ancient Park of Toxteth that was actually a Victorian folly and described as such by Griffiths.
Chris
Indeed, I suspect its a nice bit of Victorian 'Keltic' revivalism. I'm just wondering if it was added as a nod to the monastic names that John Cragg gave to his houses: The Friary, The Cloisters, The Priory etc...
Thanks Ged I did find that Holy Cross stuff when I was searching for images of St Patrick's Cross.
Wirral has a St Bridget's Church founded by Christian Vikings from Ireland and place names of Irish origin such as Irby "settlement of the Irish". The fact that a marker called St Patrick's Cross stood on the road to Ormskirk rings a bell straight away. The cross there in the 18th Century may have been an original or a later replacement based on a tradition of marking the route from Liverpool to Ormskirk. The site would also make a good trading place being across the river from the main Viking settlement on Wirral and on the road to the settlement at Ormskirk and the other Lancashire settlements.
I think the main argument against St Patrick's being in Liverpool in the Dark Ages would be that Liverpool was not a port at this time and it would be sparsely populated. The main ports in the area would be on the River Dee such as Chester and Parkgate. The Vikings from Ireland brought their new christian religion with them and were accompanied by their Irish allies. The final expulsion of Vikings from Ireland happened in the 11th Century so they could have been coming here over a period of a hundred years. St Patrick's Cross may have marked the original Paddy's Market!
St Patrick's Cross may have been removed because of health & safety! Apparently these crosses were a nuisance to some people and they could cause arguments over having them removed. Here is an account of the fate of the Everton Cross:-
Recollections of Old Liverpool by James Stonehouse
CHAPTER VIII.
In 1820, a rather curious circumstance transpired, which created a good deal of conversation, and even consternation amongst the inhabitants of Everton. This was the extraordinary and mysterious disappearance of the Cross which stood at the top of the village, a little to the westward of where the present Everton road is lineable with Everton-lodge. This Cross was a round pillar, about four feet from the top of three square stone steps. On the apex of the column was a sun-dial. This Cross had long been pronounced a nuisance; and fervent were the wishes for its removal by those who had to travel that road on a dark night, as frequent collisions took place from its being so much in the way of the traffic. When any one, however, spoke of its removal, the old inhabitants so strongly protested against its being touched, that the authorities gave up all hope of ever overcoming the prejudice in favour of its remaining.
However, a serious accident having occurred, it was at length determined by the late Sir William Shaw, to do what others dared not. One dark and stormy winter's night, when all Everton was at rest--for there were no old watchmen then to wake people up with their cries--two persons might have been seen stealing towards the Cross, in the midst of the elemental war which then raged. One of them bore a lantern, while the other wheeled before him a barrow, laden with crowbar, pickaxe, and spade. The rain descended in torrents, and the night was as dark as the deed they were about to commit could possibly require. They approached the ancient gathering place, where, in olden times, during the sweating sickness, the people from Liverpool met the farmers of the district and there paid for all produce by depositing their money in bowls of water.
Amidst the storm the two men for a moment surveyed their stony victim, and then commenced its destruction. First, with a strong effort, they toppled over the upper stone of the column; then the next, and the next. They then wheeled them away, stone by stone, to the Round House on Everton-brow, wherein each fragment was deposited. The base was then ruthlessly removed and carried away, and at length not a vestige was left to mark the spot where once stood Everton Cross--raised doubtless by pious hands on some remarkable occasion long forgotten.
The Cross was thus safely housed and stored away in the Round House, and no one was the wiser. When morning dawned the astonishment of the early Everton birds was extreme. From house to house--few in number, then--ran the news that Everton Cross had disappeared during the storm of the previous night. The inhabitants soon mustered on the spot, and deep and long and loud were the lamentations uttered at its removal. Who did it? When? How? At length a whisper was passed from mouth to mouth--at first faintly and scarcely intelligible--until, gathering strength as it travelled, it became at length boldly asserted that the Father of Lies had taken it away in the turbulence of the elements. And so the news spread through Liverpool, in the year 1820, that the Devil had run off with the Cross at Everton.
My old friend, who many a time chuckled over his feat, and who told me of his doings, said that for many years he feared to tell the truth about it, so indignant were many of the inhabitants who knew that its disappearance could not have been attributable to satanic agency. My friend used to say that he had hard work to preserve his gravity when listening to the various versions that were prevalent of the circumstance.
http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/wor...3787&pageno=48
Blue
Hi Blue
I know that the claim has been made that St. Patrick preached in the Liverpool area before going to Ireland, although I think the claim is rather fanciful, and might arise more from someone making the assumption that took place due to the name of St. Patrick's Cross. My inclination is to think that St. Patrick's Cross was just one of the many medieval crosses in the area and that it probably had no personal connection to the historic St. Patrick.
In regard to the information you posted that Everton Cross is said to have been made into a sundial before its later removal, another example of that is the sundial at Thornton in Sefton where the sundial has been built on the old cross base next to the stocks on Water Street at the intersection with Green Lane. The cross is described in an English heritage listing as follows: "Base to cross with later sundial. Base possibly medieval, sundial possibly C18. Stone. 3 square steps with square-section baluster; metal plate and gnomon. Enclosed with stocks (q.v.) by C20 railings."
Chris
I think it was more a case of Ireland got beat in the footy.
That made St. Patrick cross.
St. John scored from Hunt's Cross.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
:PDT_Aliboronz_24:
Thanks Chris for your comments about St Patrick's Cross. This one shouts out to me that it is different from the other crosses in the area being named after a saint of the Irish located on a road used by people from Ireland in the 900s/1000s. I wonder what happened to it. Maybe Bruce Grobbelaar got rid of it he was always scared of crosses.
Blue
My theory is the Vikings of Wirral and the Irish Sea would have sailed into Liverpool via The Pool. They would have followed this bending body of water (Lithe Pool = bending pool) around to where Whitechapel now stands. Disembarking at Whitechapel they would have climbed up to St Patrick's Hill around where Hatton Garden now stands via what is now Crosshall Street. They would have traded at St Patrick's Cross or journeyed on to the Lancashire settlements.
Blue
You've got a vivid imagination, Blue. Perhaps...
C
Hi Chris
The only way to prove it would be archaeological finds or an ancient reference to it. I find it difficult to believe that the Vikings from Ireland were active at local places with Viking names like Toxteth, Kirkdale and Aigburth but overlooked Liverpool with that inviting pool off the River Mersey. Here is a map showing major place names in Liverpool and Lancashire that come from the Vikings who came from Ireland and settled here in the 10th Century and possibly 11th Century too:-
http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/q...oolSWLancs.jpg
Best wishes,
Blue
Hi again Blue
Okay.
The jury appears to be out though on whether Toxteth is a Scandinavian name. I know some sources say it is, but others point out that when the name appeared in the Domesday Book of 1086, the name was spelled "Stochestede", which meant "the stockaded or enclosed place", from the Anglo-Saxon stocc "stake" and Anglo-Saxon stede "place" (found in many English placenames, usually spelled "stead").
Chris
Hi Chris
Okay Toxteth might be a debateable one my source said it came from the Scandanavian name "Toki".
Regards,
Blue
That's right, one interpretation is that the name means "Toki's landing place." I have to say though that some of the supposed etymologies of placenames are more or less guesswork -- taking the existing name and looking for similarity with Norse or Anglo Saxon word forms. Still it's all very interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue70
Cheers
Chris :PDT_Aliboronz_24:
This image shows the locations of St Patrick's Cross, St Patrick's Hill and the Pool of Liverpool on a 20th Century map. The hill would have been a prominent feature in the landscape to visitors sailing into the Pool in medieval times. The cross itself was well placed being on the road between Liverpool and the Lancashire towns
I've recently read about the presence of Irish merchants in medieval Liverpool they are more likely to have been involved in setting up St Patrick's Cross. It was probably a market cross that became disused over time and stories were created about it because its origins had been forgotten:-
http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/q...sCrossPool.jpg
Blue