Hi Steve & Taffy
Thank you both for the information and the great pics.
Chris
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Hi Steve & Taffy
Thank you both for the information and the great pics.
Chris
5 minutes walk from the cricket ground is Grassendale Park. One of the good things about Grassendale Park, including the dinky little railway station at Cressington, (no longer called Cressington & Grassendale) is that it would be completely recognisable to Maybrick if he were to come back today. Nearly all the large houses are intact. Although just further up Aigburth/St Mary's Road in the made up 'Cressington Heath' it looks as though luxury apartments are about to make an appearance along with, wait for it, executive homes!)
Hi JerichoQuote:
Originally Posted by Jericho
I agree as to Grassendale Park being well worth seeing for its Victorian mansions. James and Florie Maybrick lived at Beechville, 7 South Road in Grassendale Park before moving to Battlecrease House. Jericho, is it true that Steven Gerrard lives in Grassendale as I think I read? Also I have never been clear on this.... what's the difference between Cressington and Grassendale or are they actually the same place?
Chris
Not really. They were two private adjacent residential parks rather like Fulwood Park in L17. Grassendale is slightly more upmarket in terms of the quality of the housing. They are now part of a combined conservation area where everything is tightly regulated, even the station (officially in Cressington) looks as though it would be at home in the nineteenth century. Cressington Park is closest to Aigburth Road. Some of the best houses are to be found in North Road and South Road (Grassendale). Grassendale and Cressington Esplanades are both very attractive and well worth a visit, too.
Hi Chris, Jericho and everyone.
Wow! I am gobsmacked to think that the innkeepers Lodge where I will be staying in May is actually built on the site of the place where the inquest into Maybricks death took place at the time. No wonder Jericho suggested that James's ghost haunts the grounds.. Funny thing is I don't think I would be scared if I ran into his ghost now. I think I'm so interested in his life and the diary that, even if he had his 'shiny knife' with him I'd probably invite him in for a chat and a cup of tea! HA HA HA HA HA HA
Many thanks to Steve and Taffy for the interesting photo's. Alfred Brierley is actually buried not all that far from Hastings at a small place in the country called Newick (near Lewes). I have never visited his grave as I don't drive and it's virtually unreachable by public transport from here. The fact that Brierley chose to live out the latter years of his life somewhere right 'away from it all' is perhaps significant in itself.
Thanks once again Chris for the link to the William D Rubenstein article. I have now read it and enjoyed it immensely. Predictably I agree with a lot of what Rubenstein says and think it a distinct posibility that Alice Yapp could well have stolen the diary from the house at the time (seeing as it was Yapp that opened Florries letter to Brierley when little Gladys 'dropped it in the mud'). 'I leave this now in a place where it shall be found' I think James say's in the diary. This certainly suggests that James could have left it in such a place where anyone searching the house could have found it.
We do know also that around the time James died that Michael Maybrick DID initiate searches of the house. I also find the evidence about Florence Aunspaugh's reference to James being known as 'Sir James' quite interesting too. Maybrick was known by all to be a gentle and essentially placid man but he was also known to have had a ferocious temper if roused. As I have said here before, I find James's inclination to 'grossly inflate his own ego' in this kind of way perfectly consistent with that of a frustrated and powerless individual suffering with depression and or mental illness. The 'Diego letter' is also very interesting. I feel it quite possible that it could indeed have been sent by Maybrick. I must say however that the connection that Rubenstein makes to the Laurenz signature rhyming with Florence is rather tenuous! The ill James Maybrick was I believe a man that enjoyed taunting the authorities and the fact that he perpetually got away with doing so would serve only to heighten his own feeling of importance and invincibility. In real life of course James could see his life falling apart around him, he was losing not only his wife but his sexual prowess and quite possibly also his business...
Along with the 'Diego letter' there is the 'Liverpool businessman' letter written on the front part of a newspaper, the Goulston Street Graffitto (James instead of Juwes) another letter (which I cannot recall the Ripperologists title for now) that gave the rippers current adress in Liverpool (it turned out to be adjacent to St James's St) AND even the fact that Mitre Square in 1888 led directly into ST JAMES PLACE that all add weight if you accept James Maybrick as the Ripper to his love of leaving 'clues' for the police.
Well I'm off to play a few of my own 'funny little games' (don't worry, only on my Playstation!) What say you!!!
'All hands on deck! Prepare for a barrage!!! HA HA HA)
All the best,
Tony.
I told Chris that I'd post this pic.
I'll leave it to him to write the caption.
Hi PhilipGQuote:
Originally Posted by PhilipG
Many thanks for posting that photograph of the Poste House pub in Cumberland Street. As Diary afficianados will know, the Diary states at one point that James Maybrick took "refreshment" at a place called the "Poste House." I and other critics have taken this to be a mistake by whomever wrote the Diary--a hoaxer posing as James Maybrick--since this establishment was not known by that name in 1888-9 but was known then as the "Muck Midden."
However, others, such as authors Paul Begg and Caroline Morris, have argued that the diarist could have meant somewhere else that was informally known as the "Poste House."
It has been pointed out, for example, that Dale Street, off which Cumberland Street runs, was the street in Liverpool where the stagecoaches bringing the mail came, and that taverns where the mail was brought were referred to as "post houses." Of course, by 1888-9, the era of stagecoaches transporting the mail was over by some 40 plus years, and the railways had taken over that function.
Ms. Morris has also stated that the Post Office Hotel in School Lane might have been known as the "Poste House." This seems a stretch to me, and as a Liverpudlian I think the Poste House in Cumberland Street was meant and that the hoaxer, knowing the place had that "olde world" spelling, assumed the establishment had that name in 1888-9.
Chris
Chris and Tony - whatever your contrasting thoughts are on the diary and whether or not the Poste House in Cumberland St was in fact mentioned, its a must see pub during your stay for the event, one of the best untouched traditional boozers left in the city centre. Surreally though, the upstairs is now a gay bar so you may enjoy your visit more in the daytime.
Apart from Battlecrease Mansion, (on the other hand is there anything else in Riversdale Road of any value to Maybrick devotees?) you won't find much of interest in contemporary Riversdale Road - unless you want to spend £150K on a recently built (can't quite put my finger on the style, I think it begins with c) two bedroom apartment, luxury of course. Good view of the water from the car park at the bottom, too. Occasionally a bit of random railing, or a remnant of gatepost denoting another Liverpool.
Hi Jericho and SteveQuote:
Originally Posted by Jericho
Jericho, your impression of Riversdale Road is about the same as mine. I would agree that for visitors apart from the Maybrick mansion, the biggest thing is the view of the river from the bottom of the road.
I was able to see the interior of Battlecrease, though only the downstairs, courtesy of the tenant of that part of the house (it now being split up into flats) at the time of the 2003 Jack the Ripper convention at the Adelphi. I saw the study where Maybrick probably answered his business letters and maybe (as if) made jottings in the Diary. My visit was somewhat spoiled by happening to step into some doggy doo which led to me having to wipe my shoes on the lawn!
Steve, I did have a pint in the Poste House on that same visit to Liverpool and was accompanied by Andy Aliffe, a Ripper expert as well as a former BBC comedy producer who has some amusing anecdotes of working with (or trying to work with!) the redoubtable Ken Dodd. I am not sure that either of us knew that upstairs at the Poste House was a gay bar though. Do either of you remember the Magic Clock in Williamson Square which was said to be the gay pub when I went on pub crawls in the Sixties?
Chris
Sorry Chris I wasnt born till 1971 so cant help you there! Upstairs at the Poste house has only become a gay bar in the last 12-18 months.
God you're only a kid, ha ha.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteH
Chris
It wouldn't surprise me to find out that Maybrick was sometimes partial to a bit of ***** loving on the side.
Type, type, type...
What's that? Another lost diary! So that's what he was using arsenic for - the dirty get.
Hi Everyone,
Long time - no post eh? Dunno why really just ran out of ideas I guess (oh and went on holiday to Amster**** for a few days). A woman at my writing group came up with an interesting exercise for homework last week. She told us all to think of our favourite book and then try to compose a letter from one of the characters in it to another about a part of the story we ourselves have invented. I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to learn by doing so but the idea got me thinking about my old friend Maybrick again. What if James had been caught red handed? What kind of letter would he have written, the day before his execution in his cell and who would he have written it to? I came to the conclusion that James would almost certainly have written to his brother Michael. 'Just for jolly' this is what I imagined he might have said. Tell me what you think eh?
To my dear brother Michael,
How are you? Forgive me dear brother but I know no other way of beginning this letter. Of course I know all too well how you are. Perhaps I have even lost the right to ask you such a question?
It is cold and damp in here. I am most grateful at least that my stay in such conditions shall not be a prolonged one. The hangman shall do his work tomorrow. I pray for a quick death, though I am aware how I deserve to suffer for what I’ve done.
Take care of Gladys and Bobo for me will you? Do this for the man I once was for the brother you once had I beg of you. Oh how I have worried about my dear sweet Gladys. Has her heath improved with the coming of the spring?
I regret I shall not live to see my most favourite of months, feel the warming air upon my skin and smell the sweet scent of the flowers on the wind.
I shall not ask for your forgiveness. That alone only God can give me now. Soon my body shall lie beside mother and father…Oh how could I have done such deeds Michael? How? How could I have brought such shame upon our family and such pain to so many?
My head aches almost as much as my heart. Hands as cold as ice shall soon matter no more. Of earthly worries I will at least be free.
How is my dear friend George? I feel such guilt about having deceived him so. Such a dear and true friend, no man could have wished for better. I pray only that with time he will recover and forget if not forgive.
Am I sorry for all I’ve done? I know not? Perhaps I am incapable of feeling so, if a man cannot explain his actions is it even possible for him to understand them?
I leave the care of my estate in your capable hands dear brother, I know you will ensure bunny and the children are well provided for. Indeed have you not always been the most sensible among us?
Farewell then. Oh how inadequate are words?
Your loving brother James.
A petition for the posthumous pardon of old ma Maybrick:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/PardonFlorie/
Bless maaa soul, a cuppa cofffeee.
Hi Jericho
Thanks for the news of the petition to pardon Florence Maybrick. We'll report it in the new issue of Ripperologist.
Hi Tony
Your letter comes across as if it could have been written by James Maybrick. It worries me that you might make it too authentic sounding that you will put yourself in the frame as a suspect for having written the Diary, ha ha. :PDT_Xtremez_42:
Chris
Did I imagine this or is there talk about making a movie about James Maybrick Esq?
Better still one about old Flo.
A very dark couple. If that house could talk or even whisper ...:eek:
Hello JerichoQuote:
Originally Posted by Jericho
There has been talk of making a film about the Maybricks for over ten years. At one point, Anthony Hopkins was going to play James Maybrick, but he backed out supposedly saying he had played too many "dark" parts (e.g., Hannibal Lecter). The director William Friedkin, responsible for The Exorcist and The French Connection, was said to have been making a movie about the Maybricks called Battlecrease. Friedkin's project was bounced about between studios and at one point he was involved in a law case over one studio backing out of the project. The screenwriter Bruce Robinson (Withnail and I) was also said to be involved in a screen project involving the Maybricks but he has apparently turned instead to writing a book on the subject, according to a March 24, 2003 story in the Daily Express. The latest is that Friedkin is said to be coming to the "The Trial of James Maybrick" at the Liverpool Cricket Club on May 19-20 -- so whether that means his projected film is back on, I don't know. I'll try to find out when I am in Aigburth in a few weeks!!!
Chris
I just bought the 'Murder Most Foul' Liverpool Echo special.
Big double page feature about the Maybricks...
Just a couple of things...
I saw a script for "Fifteen Lost Years" about six years ago when it was due for a re-write. The story is very one-sided, as you'd imagine, but it also included extracts from the diary as though it has been proved to be undoubtedly real. It basically makes out that Mrs. Maybrick found the diary and killed her husband to stop him killing others. It also gives the hint that Alice Yapp (a maid) and Matlida Briggs (a neighbour) were in on the murder.
I have also seen a copy of the script for The Ripper Notes, an unathorised script based on the Maybrick Diary but thankfully they do point out that it's yet to be proved real.
I don't for one minute think the diary is real. There are too many questions but it is at least a good read... ish!
I'd be interested in attending this Maybrick event. Can anyone give me more details?
Thanks for this information UKRobP and welcome to Yo Liverpool. Are you a scriptwriter? You can find information on the Maybrick Trial atQuote:
Originally Posted by UKRobP
http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3451
Chris
Alice Yapp - fantastic name:PDT_Aliboronz_11:
Hi Chris,
No, I'm not a screenwriter. Well not officially, although I have done the odd bit.
I work in the industry, hence seeing the scripts, and also have an interest, as a hobby, in crime.
Cheers for the link. Will check it out.
Rob.
I know this is a forum about Liverpudlian Celebs so I don't want to turn it into a Jack The Ripper thread but... can someone tell me (as there seems to be quite a few Ripperologists here) why of the 11 murders added to the Whitechapel casefiles, only 5 are ever mentioned as being by the Ripper. The police at the time thought the others were and evidence still suggests that they were Ripper murders but no one ever mentions them.
Hi again UKRobPQuote:
Originally Posted by UKRobP
Thanks for the info on your background, UKRobP. Glad that the link on the Maybrick event proved useful to you. Hopefully I will be able to meet you next month at the Maybrick Trial. I will be coming over from the U.S. for the event.
You are 100% correct that the press at the time counted as many as eleven murders as being by Jack the Ripper extending earlier and later than the famous five murders of the "Autumn of Terror" of 1888.
The so-called "canonical five" of Mary Ann ("Polly") Nichols (Aug 31), Annie Chapman (Sept 8), Elizabeth Stride (Sept 30), Catherine Eddowes (Sept 30) and Mary Jane Kelly (Nov 9) have been so classified together mainly because they were distinguished, except in one of the victims, by both the same deep neck cut and signature disembowelment. The exception being that no abdominal mutilation in the case of Stride where the traditional thought is that the killer was interrupted and he found a later victim the same night (Eddowes).
The classification was proposed in Sir Melville Macnaghten's memoranda of 1894 to the Home Secretary but also concurs with the notes of Dr. Bond, one of the police surgeons (see http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=2658).
Chris
Two pics of the Trinity Vaults, one from 1912, the other my own from 1990.
Listed as 211 Athol street and 101 Latimer street. In the 1860s,the premises had the unusual name of the Chanticleer. Some of the locals are congregated on the corner whilst on the left in Athol street, there appears to be a party of school children with their teacher. Three brass balls, indicating a pawn shop faces the pub. This pub has now been converted into flats,the shops and houses either side have gone with neat new houses now surrounding the pub, belying a rather gruesome history.
In 1883,just two doors away from the pub at 105 Latimer Street, seen on the old photograph,lived Catherine Flanagan,a lodging-house keeper. She and her sister, Margaret Higgins, became known as 'the Borgias of the slums', after Lucretia Borgia,a member of an old Italian noble family of Spanish origin, who became notorious as a poisoner.
Whilst living in Skirving Street, they conspired to poison four people, three of them relatives, by using arsenic from flypaper which were sticky strips that were suspended from the ceiling to attract and kill flies, used in most houses up to the 1950s.After collecting the insurance on the deceased,they moved to Latimer street, with their crimes apparently undetected.
However, they were soon on the move again,to the nearby Ascot street. Here, their murderous ways were to continue. Their victim this time, Thomas Higgins, suddenly took ill and, after writhing in excrutiating agony all night, died the next day. His death was certified as being from excessive drinking, but his brother's suspicions were aroused when he discovered that the deceased had life insurance with no less than six companies.
The police were informed and subsequently a post-mortem ordered. This led to the other three bodies being exhumed, to find traces of arsenic in each of them. The two sisters were tried for murder.
It was not until 1889 that another murder trial became internationally famous, that of American born Florence Maybrick, known as the flypaper poisoner. Although contraversial and well documented,the method she allegedly employed had already been used some years earlier by the sisters in question. Although never gaining the publicity of the Maybrick case, the murder trial of the two sisters was avidly followed locally. Eventually they were jointly charged with one murder and were hanged at Kirkdale Gaol during a snow storm in March 1884.
Source: Freddy O'Connor's - A pub on every corner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
Ged have you been looking at the "what are you reading" thread before posting this here or has some sort of thought transmission gone on and you've just posted these here by coincidence. Is that pub stillstanding in another guise,wouldnt mind getting down there to have a look now you've pinpointed to me the site where they lived.
Ste. it must be the latter because I don't think i've ever even visited that thread, let alone yesterday :)
I will now though.
Wow Ste. What a genuine coincidence, it was just that I was looking through A pub on every corner for tower block pics, they're sometimes in the backdrop, and read this story that I don't think i'd taken any notice of before.
The pub is still standing but converted into flats, i'm at Vauxhall road today so will post a pic up of it later for yer.
Interesting information, Ged and Ste. As I wrote in my recent article in Ripperologist about Sir Samuel Brighouse, the coroner who conducted the enquiry into the death of James Maybrick, opened at the Aigburth Hotel and thereafter at the Garston Reading Room, Wellington Road, I do think that the arsenic murders of Higgins and Flanagan, had a direct impact in influencing the coroner's jury, and thereafter the trial of Florence Maybrick, in persuading both juries that she had likely poisoned James Maybrick. And this despite the fact that Maybrick was a known arsenic addict. I think there is a good case to be made that Maybrick had in fact set up his own demise, in that it was the removal of his steady source of arsenic, in his regular self-dosing with arsenic, that led to his death.
Chris
Ste and Chris. As this is the Maybrick thread, i'll post the pics I took of the Trinity pub as it looks now on the What book are you reading thread.
Okay, thanks, Ged, I will look forward to seeing the pics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
Chris
Hi Everyone,
Nice to post here again, it's been a long time I know. To be honest I've not been in the brightest of moods lately and so inspiration and enthusiasm have been a bit low. Still, I will be seeing some of you next week at the Trial I hope. Really looking forward to meeting you Chris and my old sparring partner Jericho if he's attending. I am going to be getting the train up from Hastings to Aigburth station on Thursday so will be in town from Thursday night. I will be staying at the Innkeepers lodge, Liverpool South if anyone wants to look me up. I would like to know how far from Aigburth station that is? If anyone knows and could post here before Thursday It would be much appreciated. If it's not far then I'll walk it otherwise I'll have to find out about getting a taxi. I hope the weather is going to be much kinder to us all in Liverpool than it is down here! Look forward to meeting you all and discussing the diary soon!
Hello TonyQuote:
Originally Posted by TonyMay
Great to hear from you, Tony. I am looking forward to meeting you in Liverpool as well. Aigburth station is on Mersey Road which is the next main street over from Riversdale Road and the Cricket Club, opposite which you will find the Innkeepers lodge, so it's around three-quarters mile from the station to the lodge. You can even walk along the same footpath James Maybrick did, presumably, between Riversdale Road and Mersey Road, on the embankment overlooking the railway tracks. I will hope to catch up with you before the Maybrick Trial and may be able to meet you at the Lodge Thursday night or Friday before the coach tour which you will probably be on, will you? My wife Donna and I will be taking it.
Tony, have a look at the Liverpool map on Streetmap.co.uk which shows the area. I punched in "Aigburth Station" although I am not sure what the arrow is supposed to represent. The station though is the red blob to the left of the arrow and the Travel Lodge should be just to the left of the "G" in Grassendale. You might actually be a bit closer to get off at the Cressington Station. I am a bit surprised that you can get a train from Hastings and be able to get off at Aigburth (or Cressington) as I would have thought you would have to travel into downtown Liverpool but you probably know better having booked your train ticket. :)
Chris
Hi Tony,
Aigburth railway station is closer to your hotel than Cressington. When you come out of the station turn right and walk to the top of Mersey Road. Turn right into Aigburth Road and continue walking until you reach the cricket club on the corner of Riversdale Road (look to your right and you will see Battlecrease House). Your hotel is opposite the cricket club on the other side of the dual carriageway. Total distance from the station about 800 metres. 8 minutes of easy walking.
If you are travelling from Euston your train will go into Lime Street station and you will have to get across to Central station (it's well signposted, about a 5 minute walk) and take the Northern Line to Aigburth. Trains run every 15 minutes and the destination on the front of the train is Hunts Cross.
A taxi ride from Lime Street to your hotel will cost you about £10.
If you fancy a bus ride, take the 82 and ask the driver to let you know when you have arrived at Liverpool (Aigburth) cricket club.
BTW - have you seen the recent comments on your poetry?
Hi Chris, Hi Jericho,
Thanks so much for all your help once again. It sounds as if the lodge is easily walkable from Aigburth station. I thought it shouldn't be far because James used to talk about using the station to get to work. Chris, it would be lovely to meet up with you and your wife before the trial starts. I will be getting the 9.47 train from Hastings tomorrow so should be at the lodge by around 5pm ish. If you'd like to meet me for a drink later that evening or maybe the following day sometime I'd like that very much. Sadly, I don't have a mobile phone so I don't know how were going to get in touch with each other? Maybe you could leave a message for me at the lodge? I will make a point of asking if I have any messages when I arrive. I have also reserved a ticket for the jeremy Beadle quiz night so i hope you are going to that as well. Talked with Chris jones on the phone and it sounds as if the quiz will be fun. I think I will be a little 'out of my depth' talking to some 'real experts' on the case but I hope I will 'hold my own' at least when discussing James!
Look forward to seeing you soon,
Tony.
http://www.slemen.com/
I found this web site some days ago. I was very affraid!! Then I was looking for more information in others web. Differents teories about it.
But if it is true, the owner of the clock, a guard who lives in Birkenheand, who bought the clock for L225 in the last decade, will be rich now... and the owner of the diary too.
I was thinking that was a history not real. I saw Jack The Ripper´s film in the Spanish Tv somes years ago. The film said, was a doctor of the Real Family, and for that, the history was closed to the population.
I was reading about other histories about Wavertree. Maybe, someone can help me. I am looking for a book, which tell the histories about this area, the gosth of Church Rd., etc.
Thanx u!!
Hi Everyone,
For me, the recent 'Trial Of James Maybrick' and subsequent 5 day holiday in Liverpool was I must say the holiday from HEAVEN!
Chris Jones of Liverpool cricket club was amazing and put on a great event. Jeremy Beadle was also great. Not only was he fun, he was knowledgeable and approachable too. He didn't ebven hit me when I suggested that a lot of the ripperologists on the casebook of jack the ripper were sure to say that Maybrick had been framed if he were to be found guilty with him as the judge! Nice man Jeremy.
In fact it was nice to meet SO MANY nice people AND have something in common with all of them too! I really enjoyed meeting you Hargy, you really gave me a start when you looked at me and said 'Your Tony May aren't you?' HA HA HA Fame at last!!! I look forward to the photo soon! Chris - my 'main man' it was great to meet you also. I only wish we'd had more time to get together for a 'proper chat'. Things seemed to move along at the trial at such a pace that we never really got the chance to have a drink together, sit down, 'swap notes' and get to know each other did we? Never mind, I'm sure you will have plenty to say on here at some point about it all... not least the GUILTY verdict! HA HA HA HA (I'll expect some flak for that cheeky remark!!!) I hope you have a great time on the Isle Of wight and if you find out anything on Michael Maybrick please post it here!!!
Jericho, you are a star!!! I followed your instructions to the letter on how to use the public transport to get to my hotel. Along with the fact that the place you told me to book was within SPITTING DISTANCE of where I wanted to be I reckon I owe you a few beers if ever I'm in town again!! Thanks a lot!!
As far as Maybrick is concerned, I am now totally convinced that he DID write the diary and that further corrobarative evidence will eventually come to light to this fact. The Jack The Ripper thing however will still run and run even if it is eventually accepted that he did write the diary. Why? because even if it could be CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN that James Maybrick wrote the diary of Jack The Ripper, I don't think we will ever be able to PROVE that he actually killed any of them. But then isn't this just what makes the whole ripper tale so facinating?
Does anyone know if the trial was recorded as I would love to see it