Williamson Tunnels

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Originally Posted by danensis

I was most disappointed to find that they were not really tunnels at all, but just vaulting over existing excavations. At least the tunnels built by George Senior in Doncaster were excavated tunnels. I believe there was something similar in Stockport?

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You are correct in saying that some of the locations are exisiting quarry produce and that Williamson altered them with a cut and cover method, but this would apply to about 10% of what we have found so far.

Certainly, the main hall under the House and the Paddington area have been picked out of the solid rock. There are many instances where tunnels have been created from brickwork only - Paddington once again is an excellent example. I can only really think of the Heritage Centre that shows the quarry example, certainly not anything else that has been found so far.

PEOPLE have only a few days left to visit Liverpool?s Williamson Tunnels while they are decorated for Christmas. Read

Did anyone see the Big Picture in the Echo a few weeks back? A rather pretty shot of the new tunnels me thought.

I was unsure where to post this, so I will do a parallel post in the Old Railway Tunnels thread.

Following from what has been said on this site, I was speaking to a researcher at the Williamson Tunnels and she mentioned that they had copies of documents relating to Williamson and the Railways. I know there are lots of people on here facinated by Joseph Williamson and even more who are facinated by Liverpools railways so I asked to see copies. She sent me these two, I asked permission to use them here so here they are.

This is apparently from George (or Robert?) Stephensons master plan for the Edge Hill Cutting. What this does show is that the map has been amended with pencil marks saying 'Mr Williamson' where there is supposedley a tunnel.

She also told me that they had found letters written by William MacKenzie (he of pyramid fame) to Joseph Williamson asking for permission to dig though his land as well as pay records showing that people were payed by the LMR company to 'excavate Williamsons tunnel'!

Thanks to the Senior Researcher (Sian) at the Williamson Tunnels for this; when I mentioned that there would be some train buffs interested in this she allowed me to post her e-mail which is jwresearch@hotmail.co.uk she said she'd be more than happy for any correspondence.

It's true and been known about for years. It is well documented in the 1846 manuscript of James Stonehouse and also spoken about in Charles Hand's visit in 1926.

Basically, part of Williamson's tunnels were a triple decker section which ran from (now) Elm Grove to Grinfield Street. I've personally been in this section at the top level a few years ago.

Stephenson came along and wanted the railway to go through Williamson's land (he owned everything from the Magnet's warehouse on Mason Street, along Mason Street, down Grinfield Street, down Smithdown Lane and up the walk way next to Magnet's again) so he went through the tunnels and Williamson then built a tunnel under the present day cutting - which has long been forgotten about. The only detail to be found now is the tunnel used for Ramsbottom's Chimney, (demolished in the 60's) where you can still see the archway from any train should you know where to look.

Yes Cad, but surely Hand and Stonehouse are secondary sources... this appears to be a primary source and actually backs up what H & S say.

I'm familiar with Hand and Stonehouse's writings on the tunnels, I seem to recall that Hand wasn't very imressed with Stonehouses work and set out to correct him on many issues. But Hand himself lacked immediate knowledge... so they were both a bit stuck.

Love that area, great info. Wasn't Ramsbottom's chimney still up in 1970 though Cad, there's a pic of it on someones flickr with a later Archbishop Blanch aerial view with it gone? Had a look through the Pearsons book in Waterstones last sat, saw your name there as one of the subscribers.

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Originally Posted by fortinian

I was unsure where to post this, so I will do a parallel post in the Old Railway Tunnels thread.

Following from what has been said on this site, I was speaking to a researcher at the Williamson Tunnels and she mentioned that they had copies of documents relating to Williamson and the Railways. I know there are lots of people on here facinated by Joseph Williamson and even more who are facinated by Liverpools railways so I asked to see copies. She sent me these two, I asked permission to use them here so here they are.

This is apparently from George (or Robert?) Stephensons master plan for the Edge Hill Cutting. What this does show is that the map has been amended with pencil marks saying 'Mr Williamson' where there is supposedley a tunnel.

She also told me that they had found letters written by William MacKenzie (he of pyramid fame) to Joseph Williamson asking for permission to dig though his land as well as pay records showing that people were payed by the LMR company to 'excavate Williamsons tunnel'!

Thanks to the Senior Researcher (Sian) at the Williamson Tunnels for this; when I mentioned that there would be some train buffs interested in this she allowed me to post her e-mail which is jwresearch@hotmail.co.uk she said she'd be more than happy for any correspondence.

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Some nice original drawings of the Edge Hill cuttings, to put here would be nice:
http://www.liverpoolwiki.org/Liverpo...c_Rail_Tunnels

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Originally Posted by Ged

Love that area, great info. Wasn't Ramsbottom's chimney still up in 1970 though Cad, there's a pic of it on someones flickr with a later Archbishop Blanch aerial view with it gone? Had a look through the Pearsons book in Waterstones last sat, saw your name there as one of the subscribers.

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Look at this thread:

Ramsbottom's Chimney

Cheers. Forgotten about that thread. :PDT11

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Originally Posted by fortinian

Yes Cad, but surely Hand and Stonehouse are secondary sources... this appears to be a primary source and actually backs up what H & S say.

I'm familiar with Hand and Stonehouse's writings on the tunnels, I seem to recall that Hand wasn't very imressed with Stonehouses work and set out to correct him on many issues. But Hand himself lacked immediate knowledge... so they were both a bit stuck.

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Yes and no really. Stonehouse doesn't appear much in Williamson's records but was a well noted friend - he wasn't simply a historian who came in after 1840 when he died. So I would say that Stonehouse's version is the most 'correct' version, simply because in Williamson's full will, it is stated that he only gave Stonehouse 'full and unlimited' access to his network of tunnels and that is why he seems to be the only source at the time of Williamson.

Hand has made lots of factual mistakes in his text, both from what we have found today and from other records we have come across of Williamson but are always grateful to Hand simply because he gave the two 1926 shots of Paddington, and of the 'lower rubble' in the Banqeting Hall. He also spoke of walking for 'over a mile' in Paddington and if it wasn't for that information, we wouldn't have come across Paddington today.

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Originally Posted by Ged

Love that area, great info. Wasn't Ramsbottom's chimney still up in 1970 though Cad, there's a pic of it on someones flickr with a later Archbishop Blanch aerial view with it gone? Had a look through the Pearsons book in Waterstones last sat, saw your name there as one of the subscribers.

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1960's - it was rumoured that it was chopped down because it would block the view of the RC Cathedral!

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Originally Posted by Cadfael

1960's - it was rumoured that it was chopped down because it would block the view of the RC Cathedral!

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It was no architectural masterpiece, that was for sure.

The site of Williamsons grave is currently being cleaned up (Park Lane/Paradise Street).

I came across this artical in the library LRO a while ago. I have only just come across it so I am posting here for interest.

One of my must do's. I gotta see them tunnels myself yet.:PDT11

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Originally Posted by Samp

I came across this artical in the library LRO a while ago. I have only just come across it so I am posting here for interest.

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A nice find there. It's reworded from the original script of James Stonehouse 1846 so the document has come out at least after 1846 to retell the story of Williamson and the Tunnels.

Here's a picture of the tunnel that we rebuilt the arch of. It was, according to Charles Hand in 1926, the exact tunnel they walked into to walk for 'over a mile without finding a boundary'. The present day lets you crawl of about 20ft before being packed up with rubble, but this branch also leads to the tunnel which runs across to the Bears Paw too.

Attachment 12046

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Originally Posted by Cadfael

A nice find there. It's reworded from the original script of James Stonehouse 1846 so the document has come out at least after 1846 to retell the story of Williamson and the Tunnels.

Here's a picture of the tunnel that we rebuilt the arch of. It was, according to Charles Hand in 1926, the exact tunnel they walked into to walk for 'over a mile without finding a boundary'. The present day lets you crawl of about 20ft before being packed up with rubble, but this branch also leads to the tunnel which runs across to the Bears Paw too.

Attachment 12046

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Cad, how can you be so sure without a date that it is a rewording of Stonehouse?

Is it not more likely, as the document is written in first person, presumably by Dr. Watson, that this is the original that Stonehouse based his 1846 MS on?

You'll also notice that the piece isn't just a retelling of Williamson and the Tunnels about sanitary reform in the area.

Samp, is was their a date on the piece, do you have the LRO Reference Number for it?

And secondly Cad, where exactly does Hand say he walked for 'over a mile without finding a boundry'. It is certainly not in is Historical Society published articles, nor in his original MS for his 'History of Edge Hill'.

Also, you've only got 20ft... how can you be sure it goes a mile or indeed to the Bears Paw pub? A bricked up arch in a pub cellar does not necessarily mean a tunnel.

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Originally Posted by fortinian

Cad, how can you be so sure without a date that it is a rewording of Stonehouse?

Is it not more likely, as the document is written in first person, presumably by Dr. Watson, that this is the original that Stonehouse based his 1846 MS on?

You'll also notice that the piece isn't just a retelling of Williamson and the Tunnels about sanitary reform in the area.

Samp, is was their a date on the piece, do you have the LRO Reference Number for it?

And secondly Cad, where exactly does Hand say he walked for 'over a mile without finding a boundry'. It is certainly not in is Historical Society published articles, nor in his original MS for his 'History of Edge Hill'.

Also, you've only got 20ft... how can you be sure it goes a mile or indeed to the Bears Paw pub? A bricked up arch in a pub cellar does not necessarily mean a tunnel.

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It's an interesting point, however you have to understand that Dr Watson toured the tunnels in 1830 when Williamson was alive mainly from the Health aspect. Stonehouse released two manuscripts, one which has been reprinted as the 'Streets of Liverpool' of which he toured the tunnels only 6 years after Williamson had died, and then another book came out in 1863 (published under the name of J Hughes) giving a far more elaborate description of the Tunnels which we have worked out to be genuine and true (as far as we can make out) from the buildings that were there at the time.

Hand says that he walked for 'over a mile' along with the Historical Society of Lancashire and Cheshire (led by Mr C Hand and Mr Robert Gladstone) which was published in the Daily Post 15th November 1926, of which I have a copy of the clipping.

We've got 20 foot now, but when we found Paddington Tunnels, we were able to scrape back the surface rubble (before the car park went in) and found an archway pointing to the Bears Paw Pub. In the cellar of the Bears Paw Pub is the exact same archway pointing towards the Paddington Arch - of which we have worked out by measuring the road, fits in perfectly as a tunnel from the pub to Paddington Tunnels.

126 Paddington was the home of a Bakers (George Lunt) and Hand spoke of the exact layout of the 1st two levels of Paddington. He spoke of the crossroad at the end of the first level of steps (which is the above picture) and said by walking via this tunnel, and down some stone steps, they went with candlelight for over a mile without finding a boundary - it does not state in which direction.

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Originally Posted by fortinian

Cad, how can you be so sure without a date that it is a rewording of Stonehouse?

Is it not more likely, as the document is written in first person, presumably by Dr. Watson, that this is the original that Stonehouse based his 1846 MS on?

You'll also notice that the piece isn't just a retelling of Williamson and the Tunnels about sanitary reform in the area.

Samp, is was their a date on the piece, do you have the LRO Reference Number for it?

And secondly Cad, where exactly does Hand say he walked for 'over a mile without finding a boundry'. It is certainly not in is Historical Society published articles, nor in his original MS for his 'History of Edge Hill'.




Also, you've only got 20ft... how can you be sure it goes a mile or indeed to the Bears Paw pub? A bricked up arch in a pub cellar does not necessarily mean a tunnel.

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Hello Fortinian.

I do not have a reference no for the artical from the LRO.

If my memory serves me right, the artical was among a folder of pictures and clippings relating to Joseph Williamson, most of which are familiar and can be found on the 'Friends' website.

I located The folder via the 'Prints and Drawings book' under the name of Joseph Williamson, from a list of Liverpool merchants!

Hope this helps

Cheers Samp.

Thanks Samp, much obliged.

Your article in particular is not on the friends website and there is indeed a lot of stuff that has appeared in their booklets that is not on their website.

It is a major annoyance of mine that the Friends of Williamson Tunnels website and 'The Mole' do not publish sources.

I understand that they are not an academic publication but it is infuriating when publications on local history give their sources as 'old maps', 'old papers' and the worst of the worst 'historical documents tell us that...'.

Looks like the memorial garden at St Thomas' is finished.

http://www.williamsontunnels.co.uk/view.php?page=news


Some pics here:

http://www.williamsontunnels.co.uk/N...plaque_all.jpg
http://www.williamsontunnels.co.uk/Photos/plaque01.jpg
http://www.williamsontunnels.co.uk/Photos/plaque02.jpg

The RHS of this image seems to have been lost. A pity!

About the right hand side... I have a slide bar at the bottom of the post that I can move to move the image accross.

Do you not have this? Maybe you will have to change your browser settings.

Oh, thank you - didn't see it, silly me!