http://www.anglesey-history.co.uk/anghist.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by lindylou
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http://www.anglesey-history.co.uk/anghist.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by lindylou
While Boedicea was sacking Colchester the main Roman army was slaughtering the Druids up in sunny north wales, well it had to be done their cooking smelt, they wee stealing all the building jobs, marrying our girls and opening Druid shops, oh sorry that's the Poles.....
In terms of the original question, I think the whole of history is becoming 'Disneyfied'. Complexity, contradictory versions of the same event, motives of the historian, politics etc are out. Tony Robinson is in.
Son et lumière:PDT11
Victoria Wood is making the journey Queen Victoria never made.:snf (41):
And now I take it you all know what's happening to a lot of the poles in Scotland?
I completely agree with you on this. I stopped being catholic two years ago in favour of a religion with alot less propoganda. I once remember my mum telling me that when she was married she was told to go forth and procreate by the priest. Then once she had her first daughter (my eldest sister) she was expected to go to church, kneel down in front of the whole congregation at the front and beg for forgiveness for her cardinal sin of lust. She was insulted that my dad didn't have to beg for gods forgiveness for his lust.Quote:
Originally Posted by snappel
I still occasionally have pangs of guilt for something that is not wrong or do things certain ways because of my catholic up bringing.
On to slavery. Liverpool actually played quite a small part in the slave trade compared to an awful lot of other places. I don't think we should of been forced to appologise or that we should change street names. Yes a memorial is a good idea because it is something that was wrong and should never happen again but we shouldn't have to grovel for the small part we played as a port which slave ships mainly used just to restock supplies before they went to america.
Only today I was updating my website, this page specifically. It was wierd looking round there. So regimented and strict, every book, poster, notice and piece of artwork was God-related. I think it would be better if kids were put in a totally non-religious school and educated accordingly. Parents should be banned from making their kids go to a religious school. I find it strange now that at my bog-standard comprehensive junior school we had to pray in assembly...
I can see how blissfully ignorant religious people enjoy religion, but most of the time it seems to bring uncertainty, a lack of confidence, individual thought and a whole lot of misery.
Back to slavery, it was interesting reading about the number of people who were used as slaves during WW2 by the Nazi's. Seems a bit closer to home in a way, as it was only 60 years ago. I think it'd be better to look ahead and try and prevent slavery where possible in the future rather than getting hung up on what happened so long ago. Britain moved to abolish slavery - is that not enough?
Wonder who got it so wrong- a hack in the local rag or the writer of the press release from the museum itself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev
Unforgiveable, whoever it was, considering the subject matter.
Hi all
I came across a bizarre ebay listing for a seller who has listed a 1794 Liverpool ship halfpenny for sale.
The listing says "RARE 1794 LIVERPOOL SLAVER'S COIN! HOME OF THE BEATLES!"
At the head of a long long listing about Liverpool's history and culture, which quotes Gerry Marsden's "Ferry Across the Mersey", Beatles links, and other links, the seller states in large glary black and red lettering:
'Dear Ebay,
'Please do not end this listing for an allegedly "misleading headline"!!! This is a Liverpool Half Penny. It is a well-known fact that Liverpool was a major link in the slave trade at the time this coin was issued. The issuer of this coin, Thomas Clarke, was engaged in the Slave trade. This can be verified at: http://www.merchantnetworks.com.au/p...laversbrit.htm Therefore, it is not misleading to call the issuer a "slaver". Thank you.
'LUCKY HALF PENNY from LIVERPOOL
FERRY CROSS THE MERSEY
Life goes on day after day
Hearts torn in every way. . . '
I have no way of knowing without researching whether Thomas Clarke was or was not a slaver or whether the seller has the right Thomas Clarke but it seems to me this ebay seller is doing Liverpool an injustice in both making hay out of Liverpool's connection with slavery while also building up the city as the City of Culture.
As I say, it just comes across to me as a strange listing. See what you think.
Chris
Not heard of this before. here's some more info
http://www.abccoinsandtokens.com/DH.Lancs.062.001.html
Thanks, Taffy. That site says,Quote:
Originally Posted by taffy
"Thomas Clarke was a grocer living at 12, Cable Street, and had a warehouse at No. 4, Marshall Street in Liverpool."
If Thomas Clarke was a grocer could he have been a slave trader as well? I am not sure, although of course many merchants of the day had interests in a number of enterprises.
All the best
Chris
Yes. Thomas Clarke is listed in the 1807 list of slave trading merchants. Like other Liverpool merchants he simply speculated in slave trading alongside his other business interests. Also many people in Liverpool bought shares in each slave ship's voyage. Typically these were 1/16 ths or 1/12 ths shares in the voyage. So like others, Thomas Clarke probably sold on part of the risk in his slaving trips to other speculatorsQuote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge
Okay, thanks, Taffy. I will say that the term "slave trader" that the ebay seller is using probably brings to mind to most people a man who is fully engaged in the trade not someone who only has a part interest. Although I am sure some people might say that even that share of interest made Clarke a slave trader or at least a willing participant in the trade.Quote:
Originally Posted by taffy
Chris
No one surely is denying that this Black Holocaust took place? The guilt is not yours to take on, I can't think of any free thinking person who denies that people of the same hue cannot be utter @*&@$£d's towards their nieghbours etc.
It's almost the children's playground, 'my dads bigger than your dad'. I'm not trying to dictate the discussion rather I came on here to find out more about our various histories.
With no photographs (for obvious reasons) to clarify history, we rely on drawings litho's which tend to be verified by at the time...
The following link contains a variety images other than The Brooke. some are actually from a Navel Officer.
http://hitchcock.itc.virginia.edu/Sl...ddle%20Passage)
These are images by Gustave Dore about poverty in London, no-one denies them, except btw for the Wealthy people of that time who argued that he was showing a biased opinion of their fair city.
http://www.victorianweb.org/graphics/dore/gallery1.html
I don't think anyone is denying it, nor that black chiefs sold captured slaves on, nor the fact very few landed here, nor the fact we led the abolition, nor the fact it was abolished almost a century before most of our civic buildings were erected, nor that Liverpool's biggest trade was with Ireland and Isle of Man at that time, nor the fact it was the way of the whole world back then, nor the fact other races had slavery long before and after.
Hope putting it into perspective helps us to see the overall picture.
It was abominable but let's not beat ourselves up about it again.
Slavery was still official in Saudi Arabia in 1962 .Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
Remember also the white slave holocaust at the hands of the Muslim slave traders.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustave
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles...ic_slavery.htm
They even took slaves from the Irish coast, as of course did the Vikings before them
Lord Muck... "Surely It's allowed M'lud to send that 7 year old up the chimmney my G. grandfather did it and he was never charged with 'cruelty to a child and you can still do it now in some other countries".
M'lud... "Previously acceptable deeds which are now deemed criminal acts in this Country, is not an excuse you can use, neither do the mis-deeds of other countries have any bearing on the way you are presenting your case Lord Muck. Indeed my G.G.grandfather, M'lud the 4th, hung drawn and quartered the last person in England in this very city for stealing 5 pounds.
I sentence you to a fine of 500 pounds".
I wonder who supplied Lord Muck with that 7 year old child - tut tut.
We know who supplied the slave traders though don't we?
Arab Corsairs were mainly into white slavery. Where do you think Madelaine is?Quote:
Originally Posted by taffy
WITH GOD ON OUR SIDE
Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.
Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.
Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.
Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.
When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.
I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.
But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.
In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.
So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.
THE PATRIOT GAME
Come all ye young rebels, and list while I sing,
For the love of one's country is a terrible thing.
It banishes fear with the speed of a flame,
And it makes us all part of the patriot game.
My name is O'Hanlon, and I've just turned sixteen.
My home is in Monaghan, and where I was weaned
I learned all my life cruel England's to blame,
So now I am part of the patriot game.
This Ireland of ours has too long been half free.
Six counties lie under John Bull's tyranny.
But still De Valera is greatly to blame
For shirking his part in the Patriot game.
They told me how Connolly was shot in his chair,
His wounds from the fighting all bloody and bare.
His fine body twisted, all battered and lame
They soon made me part of the patriot game.
It's nearly two years since I wandered away
With the local battalion of the bold IRA,
For I read of our heroes, and wanted the same
To play out my part in the patriot game.
[I don't mind a bit if I shoot down police
They are lackeys for war never guardians of peace
And yet at deserters I'm never let aim
The rebels who sold out the patriot game
And now as I lie here, my body all holes
I think of those traitors who bargained in souls
And I wish that my rifle had given the same
To those Quislings who sold out the patriot game
THE BOXER
I am just a poor boy and my storys seldom told
Ive squandered my resistance for a pocketful of mumbles, such are promises
All lies and jest, still the man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest, hmmmm
When I left my home and my family, I was no more than a boy
In the company of strangers
In the quiet of the railway station, runnin scared
Laying low, seeking out the poorer quarters, where the ragged people go
Looking for the places only they would know
Asking only workmans wages, I come lookin for a job, but I get no offers
Just a comeon from the *****s on 7th avenue
I do declare, there were times when I was so lonesome
I took some comfort there
Now the years are rolling by me, they are rockin even me
I am older than I once was, and younger than Ill be, thats not unusual
No it isnt strange, after changes upon changes, we are more or less the same
After changes we are more or less the same
And Im laying out my winter clothes, wishing I was gone, goin home
Where the new york city winters arent bleedin me, leadin me to go home
In the clearing stands a boxer, and a fighter by his trade
And he carries the reminders of every glove that laid him down or cut him
til he cried out in his anger and his shame
I am leaving, I am leaving, but the fighter still remains
Yes he still remains
Hello all
This American seller continues to sell copies of the Liverpool penny of 1794 in a most exploitative fashion.
Re: RARE 1794 LIVERPOOL SLAVER'S COIN! HOME OF THE BEATLES!
I have just sent them the following message:
Hello Seller
Your listing continues to be a rather nasty take on Liverpool history, both taking advantage of and exploiting the connection with the Beatles and the Merseybeat era, and exaggerating Clarke's minority interest in the slave trade. What if you were to sell American stamps and money with the images of Washington and Jefferson on them and play up their slave ownership? Would you do that? No I don't think so. You should be ashamed of what you are doing to exploit your sale of this token and Liverpool history. Back off.
Looks like he's already responded to you in his listing.
Hi JMLEQuote:
Originally Posted by JMLE
Not sure about that. He has had the disclaimer to try to stop ebay removing his listing for some time so I am not sure that he has responded to my complaint specifically. The disclaimer or appeal to ebay to not remove his listing does show that he has had complaints from others. What gets me is that he has a rather complete even if not entirely accurate rundown of Liverpool history and accomplishments so why does he have to play up the slave trade connection? The token should sell on its own merits and its connection to historic seaport city of Liverpool, I should think. I am also not convinced that the Liverpool ship halfpenny is quite as rare as he makes out.
Chris
Received this from the ebay seller:
Hello, Who is being exploited by my listing? And yes, I remind people all the time that Washington and Jefferson were slave owners. In fact, the whole U.S. economy was built on slavery (first of blacks, later of other ethnic minorities in the form of wage slavery), genocide, and land theft (Native Americans). There is nothing wrong with stating historical truths however negative or positive (Beatles, Merseybeat) they may be. I'm not referencing slavery to make anybody look bad but to pique interest in the item. I'm just trying to make a living in very difficult times, so please give me a break. Thanks for your input. Regards, Robert
My response to him is:
Hi Robert
I am not trying to minimize the role of slavery in England or the Americas either, although it would appear to me that you have an interesting and saleable merchant's token, the token of a man who only had a part share in slavery without emphasizing that it is as you say a "LIVERPOOL SLAVER'S COIN!" which is a distortion of the facts. Clarke had maybe a 1/12 share in some slave ship so that does not quite jive with your claim that he was, as your listing appears claim he was, a "slaver." And once again you have in your listing enough interesting Liverpool history, connections, and accomplishments without relying on the slave trade connection.
Chris
I received a more conciliatory reply, so we'll see:
mmm. you've got a point there. i'll check out the listing again to see what changes can be made without making it less saleable. thanks, Chris!
Robert