The Herbert Balmer thread.

Thank you for such prompt responses and kind messages. All I can say is why and how could he have let this happen? Even if there was a tiny fraction of a doubt he should have done something. Yes, police forces were different in those days but that is no excuse. In his quite senior position he could have been different, he could have tried to change the way things were doned. I always looked up to my grandpa as a hero figure and I still do but this is very disturbing. Have already reserved the book 'Off the Cuff' with my local library. I just want the book to paint an accurate, unbaised picture. Quite ironic that I just want to hear and know the truth.

I know there is a 'Balmerologist' out there apparantly and I'll be happy to answer any questions. I do know he did many good things during his time in the police and was well respected by many people.

Just for the record Jacky Balmer was no relation. Also he was not ashamed of his working class roots, not quite sure where that has come from. Also, once again, Captain Kong I am so sorry about the way you were treated.

Laura, The "Balmerologist" is probably me. I have a lot of photos and clippings etc of your Grandfather. I know quite a few people that knew him but there is very little information held about him on the net or otherwise.

The book to read is "The Cameo Conspiracy" by George Skelly. It will illustrate Berts methods and is not for the faint hearted. Swasie Turner was just a Constable who would have worked at the same time your grandfather when he was the Acting Chief Constable. Swasie retired in the 90s as a Sergeant but had spent a great deal of his service in the Main Bridewell. Berts office was also by the main Bridwell at cheapside but in the 1950s.

I doubt you knew your Grandmother Constance. I think she may have died before you were born?

Many thanks for the pictures. Am intrigued to know how you got the old one? Don't think even my mum has that one because I would have seen it. Are we related at all, distant cousins maybe?

Remember Dunsden Road very well, particularly rushing up to the front door to press the bell and playing in the garden.

Underworld,

Thank you for your message. George Skelly hated my grandpa as my mum has talked about him. Will his book be accurate and unbiased? You mention 'Bert's methods'. Why am I starting to get a sinking feeling? I do remember my granny and I loved her. She died when I was about five so my memories are few. She was also quite ill before she died. I wear her engagement ring - given to her by Bert - and like to think that she is watching over me!

Do you remember Elsie Weston?
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4134/...de8afa57_b.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by laura anne

Underworld,

Thank you for your message. George Skelly hated my grandpa as my mum has talked about him. Will his book be accurate and unbiased? You mention 'Bert's methods'. Why am I starting to get a sinking feeling? I do remember my granny and I loved her. She died when I was about five so my memories are few. She was also quite ill before she died. I wear her engagement ring - given to her by Bert - and like to think that she is watching over me!

---

I'm afraid George Skellys book is accurate and unbiased. There was another man called Lou Santageli who did some investigation of the Cameo Case for the appeal and found d amning evidence against Bert. You can also read the Appeal Jugement that Burkhilly suggests ;

Para 97
“The non-disclosure of Graham’s first statement, and to a lesser but cumulative extent the non-disclosure of Northam’s and Dickson’s statements, deprived Kelly and his lawyers of highly relevant material. Subject only to the fact that Miss Heilbron was plainly aware of the existence of at least some of the latter statements (and of the fact that the lending of the overcoat was not mentioned until 10 October), and thus subject to the possibility that the non-disclosures were simply part of a local culture, there is every sign that those non-disclosures, and particularly that of Graham’s statement, were due to deliberate concealment. Indeed, the lies of Graham and CI Balmer in relation to when they first saw one another in relation to the Cameo murders are a strong indication of the need for concealment. The similar lies in relation to the time when the Sunday meeting at the White Star was first revealed to CI Balmer suggest the same conclusion in respect to the statements of Northam and Dickson. Disclosure of the statements would have enabled Miss Heilbron to go further than she was able in attacking the credibility of all three principal witnesses for the Crown.”

Para 130
“For these reasons we considered that both convictions were unsafe, and we therefore allowed the appeals in the references concerning both Kelly and Connelly and quashed their convictions. As we intimated at the time of the hearing of these appeals, in the light of our decisions the Cameo murders remain an unsolved crime. If these appeals had happened timeously, fresh trials might have been held, if the Crown would have proceeded with them in the light of the new material, and these matters could have been subjected to the scrutiny of a new jury. As it is, that cannot happen. However, having considered that there was in these cases a breakdown in the due administration of justice and a failure to ensure a fair trial, we consider that the consequence was a miscarriage of justice, which must be deeply regretted.”


But then if it worries you, then dont read any of it at all because it is all bad news and there is more to come with the Cranbourne Road book.

If I can help in any positive way, then I will be only too pleased to.

Laura I can understand you wanting to know as much as possible about a grandpa you loved........but remember they were different times. There's no use saying to you not to read the books mentioned - because if it were me, I probably would. As Underworld says George Skelly's book about the Cameo Murders may be difficult for you to read, but be assured George Skelly is a man of integrity, as can be confirmed by Captain Kong (Brian).

Regardless of whether you read the books or not, remember Mr Balmer was your grandpa, who loved his family and showed a totally different side to his character to the one I've read about.

Here is some rare film footage of your Grandfather. Its on a film that is about 50 mins long and Bert speaks at 29mins 49 secs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/mersey/...?all=1&id=5183

Laura Anne. " Thank you for your message. George Skelly hated my grandpa as my mum has talked about him. Will his book be accurate and unbiased? You mention 'Bert's methods'"....


Hi Laura Anne, I dont think George Skelly Hated your Grandad, Bert Balmer, he is just reporting the facts of the Cameo case and his involvment of other cases and his methods in "solving " those cases.
When Bert Balmer was out on the Street and in his office in his capacity of Chief Inspector he would obviously be a different man than when he was with his family.
Brian

Thank you Underworld for clippings. Have actually seen them but thanks all the same. Will watch video footage tonight and let you know what I think. Think I remember my mum talking about a TV drama made about one of the cases my grandpa was involved in, but my mum didn't really react to it. Sometimes she was quite vague about things. Mmmmm....! I do remember Elsie Weston and she was a super lady. She died in the 1990's when she was in her 90's. She continued to live in West Kirby and was cared for by her nephew. Did you know that Bert used to write for the Liverpool Echo about cases he was involved in. This must have been when he retired. He also had his own horse and taught himself to ride as Liverpool had their own mounted police. Am still intrigued to know how you know so much. Also Chris 48, why are you researching and why did you set up the Balmer Thread?

Laura, we are not related in any way and I know so much because I have researced what little information there is on your grandfather. My interest comes from the Cameo case.

Your Grandfather wrote articles in the Liverpool Echo for 2 months beginning on the day he retired from the police which was the day before his 65th birthday (off the top of my head 21st Nov 1967). I have most of them and need to finish that bit of research off.

Bert was a horse rider. Ive seen photos of him on a horse. He was also keen on boxing and used to attend the Liverpool Stadium a lot to watch it.

Do you remember any of the cars that he owned?

Also, what was his connection with Ireland as he used to holiday there. He would always sail.

This is where Bert lived as a child - 65 Cairns Street, Toxteth with his siblings Tom, Mona, Eva and Lucy.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4079/...fef8a83e_b.jpg

Underworld,

Amazing photo! Thank you. Bert had a Rover 2000. Don't ask me what model but it was the 1970's type! Me and my brother would squeal with delight because he would start up the car and talk to it. "Come on girl, come on" he would say. He was just the most perfect grandfather. After that he had a Austin 1100, which my father drove after my grandpa died. It was a big bulky car - light blue. They did holiday in Ireland - why I don't know but I'll ask my mum. I'm seeing her next weekend - I'll be careful what I say. I don't want to upset her, so all questions will be broached with care. My grandpa loved the sea, probably because of his merchant navy days. His father, my great grandfather used to sail on the sailing ships. His name was Richard but everyone called him Dick - (much to my children's amusement)!! He would go on voyages for months on end and when he came home he would obviously be flush with money. He would return home and say to my great grandmother (Gertrude) "we're moving!" The whole family would then 'up-sticks' and move to more 'salubrious' housing. When the money started to run out, they would then return to more basic conditions. The house in Dunsden Road was full of pictures with ships.
Grandpa had a brother who died young, can't remember how. At 14 Bert was delivering bread in a cart before going to school. My mother is incredibly like her father, they got on very well. My mother lived in Anfield for the first 9 months of her life, can't remember road now but we drove through it but she couldn't remember the number. Then they moved to Lingfield Grove and then on to Hilltop Road. But you probably know all this! Looking forward to watching video - haven't had time yet. Are you Chris 48 by any chance, because he was interested in the car thing?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4140/...50feb0ec_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4096/...1c639f5d_b.jpg

Yes Chris 48 was me. I left and came back.

Is your uncle Ian still alive? Are there any members of your family still in Liverpool Laura?

Well done Underworld for providing Laura all this info and pics, sounds like you have filled in a lot af gaps for her :handclap:

Underworld, you're becoming quite the sleuth yourself. Excellent work. :PDT11

Ha ha:PDT_Aliboronz_24:

Laura Anne, i dont really see how your mother can hate the author of The Cameo Conspiracy (without any evidence of malice on his part).
She might just as well hate the author of the other book on the case! But you grandfather certainly hated villains! To such an extent that he determined to rid Liverpool of what he called "The Scum". He was certainly overzealous in this regard. He also firmly believed in the retention of hanging and the Cat-O-Nine-Tails - the barbaric flogging of prisoners.
As a result, (and as a person who has read extensively on both cases) I'm afraid that there is abundant evidence that he did indeed fabricate evidence in both the Cameo and the Cranborne Road murder cases in order to secure convictions.I dont disbelieve you when you say he was a lovely Grandpa. I can only surmise he was what old wives used to call, "an outside devil and inside angel".
I do sympathise with you. None of us choose our parents...or our grandparents. All Children are born innocent. And It is a terrible to thing to have ones, memories, dreams and illusions shattered.

Please do not attach any significance to the large type in my previous post.
It was simply a typing error caused through my inexperience of posting on Yo!

M' lord, my mother doesn't hate George Skelly. I don't think she has ever met him and as far as I know she's only ever heard him speak on the radio. George Skelly hated my grandfather.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by laura anne

M' lord, my mother doesn't hate George Skelly. I don't think she has ever met him and as far as I know she's only ever heard him speak on the radio. George Skelly hated my grandfather.

---

Hi Laura

I have met and corresponded with George and we are both writers. I think, based on my experience, it's probably true to say that while George might hate what your grandfather did in terms of his methods, he does not hate your grandfather as an individual.

Also in considering the Cameo case, which involved gun violence, at that date, sixty years ago a rarity in Liverpool and in the United Kingdom generally, Mr. Balmer probably genuinely believed that his methods were justified to, as it were, "clean up the city" and prevent further such gun violence. The men arrested, Kelly and Connolly, became examples to deter others from using guns. Of course that would have been the case as well if the men arrested were the men responsible for the murders.

Chris

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by laura anne

M' lord, my mother doesn't hate George Skelly. I don't think she has ever met him and as far as I know she's only ever heard him speak on the radio. George Skelly hated my grandfather.

---

Hi, don't think so. His book just gives facts, and I'm sure George dosn't hate anyone

Steve

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by laura anne

M' lord, my mother doesn't hate George Skelly. I don't think she has ever met him and as far as I know she's only ever heard him speak on the radio. George Skelly hated my grandfather.

---

Laura Anne, I don't think it is rational for your mother to say The author hated your grandfather.
As you say your mother never met him and presumably neither did Mr Balmer himself. If your mother told you this, then she might as well say that everyone who Mr Skelly exposed in his book as liars and villians - e.g. Sangster, Corrie, Dickson, Northam - he also personally hated! It is absurd. As Chris George has already said, in Mr Skelly's case it was more likely a question of "Hate the Sin and not the Sinner"!
As a university trained professional writer and researcher, I doubt very much whether he would allow such petty, vindictive and subjective motives interfere with the proper objective research required in order to produce such a seminal work.
On the other hand, It would be difficult for most of us ordinary mortals with feelings, NOT to hate a person who seemingly deliberately caused three men to be hanged knowing that they were not guilty of the crimes for which they were convicted.

I remember some years ago picking up a book on the Cameo murders in the library, it had it was wrote in "faction", a word that puzzled me. I was told that it meant a mix of fact and fiction, so not knowing what was which, I never read any further.
Is this the book talked about here, or another one?

Am going to pluck up the courage and read book. Don't know what else to say, infact what can I say?

There are 2 books.

1. The Cameo Murders - Barry Shortall. Published in 1999 and was badly researched and poorly written. Shortall had approached George Skelly to jointly write a book and when he thought he had all the information that he needed, he split and went off on his own.

2. The Cameo Conspiracy- George Skelly. Published before Shortalls book in 1998 and is the definitive account of the Cameo Case and went a long way towards assisting the successful appeal that turned the convictions of Kelly and Connolly on their head. Skelly spent years researching the book and had first hand accounts from eye witnesses as to what went on. I do not know where you would get this book without spending a fortune.

George Skelly is a very nice man, very fair minded and Oxford educated.

You may be lucky ordering it from the library.

Charles Connolly did not trust Barry Shortall, he thought he was after making money out of the incident.
It was only after George Skelly proved to Charles that he was genuine and trustworthy that Charles opened up to him.
Even I had to do several `Tasks` to prove to Charles I was also trustworthy before I could become a friend.
The sad thing was Charles died before George and Lou had the appeal that cleared their names.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by laura anne

Am going to pluck up the courage and read book. Don't know what else to say, infact what can I say?

---

Don't say anything, you are just one of the people affected by it all , you were not responsible and you are very welcome here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by captain kong

Charles Connolly did not trust Barry Shortall, he thought he was after making money out of the incident.
It was only after George Skelly proved to Charles that he was genuine and trustworthy that Charles opened up to him.
Even I had to do several `Tasks` to prove to Charles I was also trustworthy before I could become a friend.
The sad thing was Charles died before George and Lou had the appeal that cleared their names.

---

It was a "Vanity press" production. Shortall just wanted to write a book. Didnt matter what the subject was.

Further to Underworld's information, there are two editions of Skelly's book. the 1998 version with a yellow cover. And the 2001 updated and revised version, which is on sale at Amazon U.K. There are several used copies available, the most expensive being £94! However, if Laura Anne has fond memories of her grandfather I would strongly advise her against reading this book because it is brutally frank about what happened and the primary role Mr Balmer played. We know it is the truth because the Court of Appeal in 2003 confirmed it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lord Dick

Further to Underworld's information, there are two editions of Skelly's book. the 1998 version with a yellow cover. And the 2001 updated and revised version, which is on sale at Amazon U.K. There are several used copies available, the most expensive being £94! However, if Laura Anne has fond memories of her grandfather I would strongly advise her against reading this book because it is brutally frank about what happened and the primary role Mr Balmer played. We know it is the truth because the Court of Appeal in 2003 confirmed it.

---

Having said that it maybe worth her reading the book to get an unbiased
opinion.

Steve

Laura if you really want to read the book, you could borrow my copy. PM me and I'll pop it in the post to you. I trust you to return it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by steveb

Having said that it maybe worth her reading the book to get an unbiased
opinion.

Steve

---

I hope she doesnt!

Gentlemen I may have a result. Visited my local library and although they have not got a copy in the county where I live, the librarian has assured me they can get it from another county. Very kind of you to offer yours Burkhilly and if my library can't get it, I take you up on your offer. The book will be the 2001 version. Now I just have to sit and wait and imagine the worst!

Thank you for photo's Chris. Will contact you as I have a question for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by underworld

I hope she doesnt!

---

Dont say we didn't warn you.

It seems Skelly and the Appeal Court were right!
On former Daily Post journalist, Ian Skidmore's Blog - Skidmoresisland (July24th) - he states that Balmer was a "Chum" of his but that the witness statements in the Cameo case bore evidence of "police coaching". He seems oblivious to the fact that, this being true, it must have been his "Chum" who did the coaching!
He further states that he met Dickson & Northam after Kelly's execution. Northam had a gun and he and Dickson were on the run. They admitted to him that they had made up their evidence in the Cameo case. So he hawked them around various newspapers to sell their story but there were no takers. This journalist has admitted making up stories in the past. So make of it what you will. But if it is true, then he is just as bad as those two.

Any right minded person would have turned the pair of them in.

Can anyone help me, I am a proffesional artist, and the Cameo Cinema murder's have always bothered me, I was 12yrs old at the time of this terrible miscarriage of justice, can anyone remember what the weather was like on this fateful evening, was it very dark at 9pm, and also was it raining etc etc
Thank You
Drufter

It would be interesting to learn whether Balmer's grandaughter did in fact obtain copies of the Cameo books, and having read them, what she now thinks of her Grandfather?

Yes, I did indeed read the book. What do I think of my Grandpa now? Well....disappointed, ashamed and very angry at his cruel and shocking behaviour. Probably the same emotions you would feel had Bert been your grandfather. However, as they always say, there are two sides to every story and I would so like to have been able to hear his. I do not know why he did what he did and how he could live with himself. As a grandfather, I have to say, he was perfect, and I have very fond memories of him.

Laura Anne, reading the book must have been a very painful experience for you. Your expressed sentiments about your grandfather however, mark you out as a noble woman. And in all fairness, I suppose, at the end of the day, it's true what they say about blood being thicker than water.

By the way a message to "Serendipidy". I cannot open your private message.