Read Empire by Nial Ferguson.Quote:
Originally Posted by chippie
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Read Empire by Nial Ferguson.Quote:
Originally Posted by chippie
Waterways, you are one of a kind. Hey fellas don't let him wind you up, he is the worlds number one expert at it. Glad to see you back BTW. :PDT_Aliboronz_24:
Just last Saturday I took my boy to see the USS Red Oak Victory (in Richmond, California), one of the last "Victory" ships built. Although this particular "Victory ship" (7000 ton armed merchantman) served in the Pacific (and Vietnam) rather than the Battle of the Atlantic, nonetheless the very old WWII era Chief Engineer on board has been on the Murmansk run and seen U-Boat action personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
What he said did not surprise me in the least. There was a U-Boat commander who came alongside his unarmed merchantman and gave loudhailer instructions on which side to launch lifeboats so the ship could be sunk "safely". (Bear in mind he was a "Chief" and engine-room officers were the among most vulnerable). There were other U-boat Kapitans who would use machine guns to strafe mariners trying to abandon ship.
People are a mixture of decent and indecent everywhere in my experience. But it's little surprise that Henry Kaiser (Californian industrialist) persuaded Roosevelt to give up on Liberty ships and instead build "fast" (15 knots steam turbine)armed merchantmen instead. See http://www.ssredoakvictory.com/
Liverpool needs to preserve what artifacts are left of and not forget it's WWII era marine history and its strong American connection. More American militarymen have passed through Liverpool than any other place in the UK. At the same time Liverpool needs to ensure that all new developments are focussed around the particularly strong and ancient maritime heritage that is a benefit few cities have.
It would not be inappropriate to review and renew "Freedom of the (City, Borough, Town)" awards made by Merseyside Cities and Towns to American organisations. I see, for example, Freedom of the Town of Wallasey was granted to All US Forces in 1944, http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb..../Wallasey.html). Nothing to be lost and everything to be gained from reminding them that there is no expiration (sic) date to "Freedom". American (and all Allied) servicemen in uniform should still travel free on the ferries for example.
Yes, I agree. There were plenty of reports of Allied servicemen shooting POW's in cold blood, etc. It's easy to think we were the universal defenders of good, but that wasn't always the case. There were good natured people on both sides, but unfortunately for your average soldier of sailor, you couldn't be choosy over which orders you obeyed.
As it happens I'm off to Germany for a week in December, so it'll be interesting to see what remnants of the wars I can find.
One of my pet history subject is WW2. I know a hell of lot about it. I advise you to do some reading about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by snappel
My uncle was on the first wave on D-Day and fought the SS hand to hand in Normandy. It was TNP (Take No Prisoners). They just shot the Germans in the heat of battle, especially the SS. In Burma the Japanese had a no surrender policy - they never in The Philippines or Manchuria - and the British killed around 100,000 of them. In the Far East, most Japanese troops were taken out of action by the British and the Soviets, not the USA.
The British never systematically went through villages killing the inhabitants as the Germans did. We never had death camps and made death a production line. We never never said we were the master race and attempted to make all other subservient to us. We never attempted genocide.
I can't stand all this bleeding heart PR crap.
I hear you on that, but your average German submariner wasn't running the death camps. You're probably getting confused between the Kriegsmarine and the Nazi dictatorship. There were some interesting stories of insides of U-boats being tantamount to treason once they were at sea, as lots of the crews detested the Nazi movement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
They all had the same mentality. Few never.Quote:
Originally Posted by snappel
The Kriegsmarine was a tool of the Nazi regime.Quote:
You're probably getting confused between the Kriegsmarine and the Nazi dictatorship.
Then why were they sinking Allied ships? If I hated a regime and was enlisted I would go to the most inert part of the military I could. U-Boat crews "volunteered". Many German sailors did not do too much during WW2, as their navy couldn't do that much at all. I would have wanted to be one of those men.Quote:
There were some interesting stories of insides of U-boats being tantamount to treason once they were at sea, as lots of the crews detested the Nazi movement.
For someone who claims to be an amateur WW2 historian, you don't know much do you?
Keep going and I'll educate you.Quote:
Originally Posted by snappel
Ah, this was what I read...
Quote:
WATERLOO, Aug 26, 1993 - A former German officer of a sunken World War II U-Boat rumored to be loaded with gold, art treasures or even escaping Nazi officials says that his boat was on no other mission than to surrender when it was sunk in the last days of the war.
"I don't think any U-boat would have taken a Nazi aboard at that time," says William Brinkmann, 82, who was first officer on board the U-534, which was raised from the bottom of the sea near Sweden by a Dutch salvage company this week. "The Nazis were never that popular among people in the navy."
http://www.geocities.com/lostnprofound/u534.htmQuote:
Brinkmann was born in Hesse, Germany but lived in Danzig Free State before the war, now the cityof Gdansk in Poland. "We were a free city for 200 years - we only became part of Germany in 1939 after Hitler had invaded us. We knew what was going on in Germany before the war because we got the papers from Berlin and Sweden." Speaking of life under the Nazis he said "We knew that there was something wrong, but it was a total dictatorship. You were a dead man if you said anything against them."
THE future of one of the last remaining German U-boats has been safeguarded on Merseyside after a new visitor attraction to house it was given the go-ahead. Read
Thanks Kev.
Well, it's interesting to see that they've given a clear explanation for cutting it up. As I thought, moving it in one piece would cost an astronomical amount. Much as I'm going to hate to see it cut up, it's better than it being left to rot further, or worse, be scrapped. If there's a proper visitor centre, and it's looked after and marketed properly, then I think it'll be a worthwhile attraction.
Nice to know. Thanks, Kev!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev
Chris
that's a bit of good news. :PDT11
Yes, I was interested to see in the same article that the new Pier Head building will be used partly for historic exhibits related to the ferries. Hopefully the builder's models that used to be in glass cases at Seacombe will be shown at Pier Head.Quote:
Originally Posted by lindylou
I wonder how many builder's models of Cammell-Laird ships are collecting dust somewhere and need a decent home. Of course they went to the ship owners, so they were dispersed (which is probably a good thing).
I don't suppose there was ever a model of the Wallasey Belle as it was not bought new. :cry:
A model of the CSS Alabama and her plans would be nice, although I think Lairds have a recent one somewhere. CSS Alabama was build at Lairds and is the most successful ship in world naval history in ships sunk - about 60 of them. It had a Liverpool crew with mainly Southern American Confederate officers, although some English, fought for America and not once dropped anchor in an American port. I believe Lairds archive is with Wirral Council now.Quote:
Originally Posted by HollyBlack
I work right by the u-boat. I kept thinking, I should take a photo while it's still there, but left it too late and now they're working on it.
Am gonna miss walking past it every day once it's been moved. I noticed they've taken the guns off it. I wonder if there'll be much left there when I go back to work after xmas
Hope they do a good job on her, I,m in favour of keeping her but the plans could have been a bit more effective in keeping her a submarine instead of a cut up fish on a slab.
Does any old timers remember this little piece of Heyworth Street? On the left was the entrance of St Benedicts Church in Kepler Street. My gramps got married in there in 1924 I think it was.
Photo curtesy of records office.
Submarine’s new lease of life
Feb 5 2008 by Kevin Core, Liverpool Echo
A “GIANT wire cheese cutter” sliced into a piece of Merseyside’s naval history today.
Work began this morning dividing the German submarine U-534 into four sections.
Tourist officials hope it will become a major attraction at Mersey Ferries’ Woodside terminal.
Engineers were using a state-of-the-art diamond wire cutter to cut up the 240 ton U-boat.
It was sunk en-route to Norway by depth charges dropped by a Liberator aircraft from RAF 547 Squadron.
The operation is expected to take up to one month.
Each section will make a day-long journey by floating crane from Mortar Mill Quay to Woodside.
Cuttings were designed with such precision the sub could be reassembled in one piece.
But visitors at the new attraction will be able to walk around the hull parts on raised platforms.
The first section to be removed will be a 23-metre length of the bow.
Work so far has concentrated on painting the exterior and removing rotten timbers and steelwork from the top deck.
Due to open in summer, the exhibition area will include artefacts such as tools found on the sub and memorabilia portraying the history of undersea warfare.
Fifteen thousand litres of diesel remained in the U-534’s storage tanks which had to be pumped out.
Neil Scales, chief executive and director general of Merseytravel which owns and operates Mersey Ferries, said: “We’re now moving on to the next stage in what is an exciting project to boost tourism on Merseyside.
“More people than ever will be able to view the sub in its new location with superb viewing areas so that everyone will be able to see what it is like inside.”
Saved from the breaker
A PROJECT to restore a 105-year-old coal-powered Merseyside tugboat which was saved from the scrapyard has been given a funding boost.
The Daniel Adamson is being brought back to its former glory by a team of volunteers.
Now the project has landed a £10,000 donation from the Merseyside Lightship Preservation Society (MLPS).
The charity, originally formed to save the historic Mersey Bar lightship Planet, decided that their remaining funds should be spent on the tug after Planet was purchased privately.
MLPS chairman Stan McNally said: “It was the natural choice, based on Merseyside with the best prospect of success.”
Built in Birkenhead, the Daniel Adamson is the only surviving steam powered tug tender in the UK.
History of a relic
Launched in February 1942 U-534 was most probably a training boat in the Baltic
She never saw active combat and was used for meteorological purposes
In May 1944, U-534 was released for operational duty avoiding contact with the enemy to ensure regular weather reports
On May 5, 1945 while in the Kattegat, north-west of Helsingor, it refused Admiral Dönitz’s order for all U-boats to surrender.
Heading north towards Norway, with no flag of surrender, she was attacked by a Liberator aircraft from RAF 547 Squadron which dropped depth charges.
U-534 took heavy damage and began to sink, 49 of 52 crew members survived.
It was discovered in 1986 and was thought to be carrying Nazi gold. It was given to Merseyside by Karsten Rae.
From BBC News
Last Updated: Wednesday, 6 February 2008, 09:38 GMT
Engineers breaking-up WWII U-boat
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2033/...9f9400b8_o.jpg
There are only four full-size WWII German U-Boats in existence
Engineers have started a month-long operation to break up the only World War II German U-Boat in the UK to turn it into a new tourist attraction.
U-534, which is being moved to Mersey Ferries' Woodside ferry terminal in Birkenhead, will be split into four pieces using a diamond wire cutter.
The sections, each weighing up to 240 tonnes, will each take a day to move.
Visitors will be able to walk through sections of the U-boat when the exhibition opens in July.
The submarine currently stands at Mortar Mill Quay, near Birkenhead, where it formed part of the Historic Warships Museum, which closed last year.
Merseytravel, which owns and operates Mersey Ferries, bought the vessel to turn into a tourist attraction at its terminal.
The first of the four sections to be removed is a 23m (75.4 ft) length of the bow, which will be moved by floating crane across the water.
Neil Scales, chief executive and director general of Merseytravel, said: "There are only four U-Boats left. One here, two in Germany and a sister boat of the U-534 in Chicago.
"It's a really important piece of history which we want to preserve.
"It's the latest in a series of developments we are undertaking to ensure Mersey Ferries maintains and enhances its position as the most popular paid-for attraction in our region.
"More people than ever before will be able to view the sub in its new location."
RAF depth charge
The Imperial War Museum confirmed there are only four full-size WWII German U-Boats in existence, and that U-534 is the only one in the UK.
The submarine, launched on 23 September 1942, was used as a training vessel in the Baltic, according to the museum.
U-534 was sunk on 5 May 1945, in the Kattegat, north-west of Helsingor, Denmark, by depth charges dropped by an RAF Liberator.
The boat was salvaged in 1993 and brought to the UK in May 1996, before becoming a popular tourist attraction in Seacombe.
The warships museum was closed down after nearby warehouses were redeveloped and the land was needed for parking space.
The new exhibition at Woodside, which includes artefacts from the submarine and an enigma machine, is due to open in July.
More photographs of U-534
read this in the echo this morning, it was sunk 48 hours before the end of the war, considering where it was sunk, how on earth did it end up in liverpool ? i think letting people see it is better than letting it rust in some hidden yard or scrapping it
The story of U-534,
U-534 web site
shoney, scroll down and click on forums, it will give you more info.
I live on the River Foyle and at the end of WWII the German fleet of submarines surrendered into Derry. The dozens of U Boats were then taken out and scuttled at the mouth of the lough.
Derry City Council have started a process to refloat one of the subs which is in incredibly good condition to use as a tourist attraction.
The surrender in Northern Ireland was to give Ulster a feeling of being 100% involved in WW2 - conscription was not enforced in N Ireland, if you didn't want to fight you never. The sinking of the U-Boats was demonstration to the world. In fact they should have been scrapped as metal was short after WW2. There was 115 of them - a lot of metal. A total of 154 U-Boats surrendered after WW2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry
U-Boats at Lisahally awaiting sinking:
http://www.uboat.net/photos/deadl.jpg
Most were scuttled way out into the Atlantic:
http://www.uboat.net/maps/images/deadlight_map.gif
Plans to renovate a former World War II German submarine and turn it into a tourist attraction have received a major cash boost.
The U-534 submarine is to become the centrepiece of a new exhibition at the Woodside Ferry Terminal in Wirral which is due to open this summer.
It has now attracted £550,000 of European Objective One funding.
Neil Scales from Merseytravel who run the terminal said: "This is a great boost to an exciting project."
The submarine will be split into sections which will allow visitors to see inside it from specially-built viewing platforms.
The exhibition in the visitors centre will display some of the four-and-a-half tons of memorabilia that was found on U534.
This includes an Enigma cipher machine, ammunition, uniforms, tools, charts and maps.
The entire project is estimated to cost about £2.5m.
BBC Liverpool
Was In Birkenhead again today. The Uboats covered In gray material stuff, not cut Into 4 pieces yet.
Strangely I thought It was the Liverpool side this was being moved to not reading the articles properly.:PDT_Xtremez_42:
I went through Woodside today wondering why some was fenced off.
Euro-cash for Wirral U-Boat project
Feb 18 2008
by Liam Murphy, Liverpool Daily Post
A SCHEME to rejuvenate Woodside ferry terminal by siting a former German U-Boat there has received a cash boost from the EU.
The plans by Merseytravel would aim to see the Wirral ferry terminal become a major tourist attraction in the £2.5m scheme.
Now the plans have been boosted by a £550,000 grant, and it is expected the U-Boat will be opened to the public this summer.
More...
Its good that the site generates such heated debate. Its because people STILL care and thats a good thing, so many years after the war. I can see where you are coming from,Waterways, My own Dad "went into the water" as those (true) men said, when he was still a very young man and his ship was hit. His health was destroyed and returned home to find his house in Sylvester Street, Vauxhall flattened and his wife and baby Daughter in an air raid shelter, covered in soot. However, Snappels report moved me and I know my Dad would have understood. He loved the series "Das Boot" about the German submarine and considered it the best TV he had ever seen about the war fought in the water. He said he thought it was a piece of history, r egardless of the fact that it was about germans. He understood it as he said it was about the war and what weeks and weeks in a "floating toilet" does to your head. Yes, I hate what the Germans did, particularly when I used to hear my poor Dad coughing his guts up 49 years after the war (a spell in a freezing sea will do that to your lungs) but you know what? He knew the score. He always said it was the working class of one Country fighting the working class of the other, with the "Higher ups" (his words) pulling the strings. Yes, the Germans behaved atrociously during the invasion of Poland but read Max Hasting Book about the liberation of Germany by the Russians. It makes for terrifying reading. Mass rapes, including women awaiting birth in maternity units, and merciless killing of civilians.. War does that to men but of course the Germans were morally wrong and I am glad people like my Dad and Waterways relatives stood on the line against them. Back to my point however. Its a piece of History, and it needs to be seen in the context of the times. After all, there are people at the sharp end of British and American guns at the moment, God help the decent people on BOTH sides
I just missed the first section getting transported to Woodside this morning. I couldn't see too much from the Liverpool side as the weather wasn't too bright.
Final piece of U-boat jigsaw is put in place
Mar 17 2008
by Liam Murphy, Liverpool Echo
THE final piece of what had become a very large jigsaw puzzle was put into place at Woodside ferry terminal at the weekend.
The bow section of the U-534 submarine was transported from Birkenhead docks to sit alongside the four other sections for what will become an unusual tourist attraction.
More...
When I first joined Harrison Line there was an engineer who 'worked by' when ships were in Liverpool, but who never went to sea anymore.
Only remember his first name, Paddy, and he was quite a small man with thick glasses and hearing aids in both ears.
He was deaf as a post and some of the junior engineers used to take the pish a bit, as he couldn't hear what they were saying. I saw him on many occasions before sailing but it was two or three years before I heard his story - from someone else, he never spoke about it.
He was torpedoed twice during the war. The first time he wasn't in the engine room and managed to get in a boat, suffering badly from exposure before being rescued. The second time he was in the engine room with no hope of getting out. An escaping air bubble carried him up a ventilation shaft and spat him out into the sea; his eardrums were burst by the pressure and that was why he had the hearing aids. A nearby vessel picked him up immediately as it was the north Atlantic and survival time in the water was literally minutes.
The same juniors who'd taken the pish treated him with respect once they'd heard the story and became very protective of him. This was the early 70's and the guy is probably long dead by now.
Wonderful information and reflections in this thread. Yes the submarine is a German war vessel, one of the fleet of U-Boats that caused terror on the Atlantic. However, as has been said, it is part of a vital time in world history and needs to be saved and studied for that reason. Great to know it will be preserved and open to the public in such a prime location. Good for Woodside, good for the Wirral, Liverpool, and Merseyside. :handclap: :PDT11
Chris
I had an uncle who was torpedoed twice, but never sunk - lucky man. Another who was killed in a Belgian ship when sunk by a U-Boat. We only found out a few months ago his name was on the Merchant Navy memorial at Tower Bridge in London. He is here..John Morgan.Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin
http://i32.tinypic.com/1nzplu.jpg
He was deserter from the British Army - how a merchant seaman, a reserved occupation, was called up I don't know. He hated the army, deserted and fought the war the only way he knew, giving the ultimate sacrifice. His name is on the Cenotaph in Antwerp too. The army came for him during the war - he was already dead. Having his name on the Tower Hill Memorial near Tower Bridge, being recognised by his country, means so much to us.
The name Richardson T, on the memorial was a 15 year old Liverpool cabin boy. He froze to death in a lifeboat. His mother lost two sons in the Merchant Navy and was desperately writing around to find news of one that was missing - poor dear. Here is a letter she wrote:
--------------------
From:
Mrs. M. Richardson
102 Boundary Street
Liverpool 5
February 21, 1943
Dear Sir,
Will you excuse me for taking the liberty of writing to you. I saw the Sunday Chronicle with your experience of 49 days in an open boat and I thought it might be the ship that my son was in, it was reported sunk the 6th of December, he was a trimmer and we got word that the ship was sunk with all hands will you be kind enough to let me know as I almost feel that he has been picked up and is prisoner.
I lost a boy last February on a Belgian ship the SS Gandia he died of exposure after 14 days in a boat this son that is missing now was on SS Cermaic could you please let me know by return of post has I am most anxious
I will close now wishing you Good Bye & God Bless
From a Broken Hearted Mother
Please Answer
He was trimmer on the ship.
___________
My little girl with WW2 Cruiser HMS Belfast behind:
http://i28.tinypic.com/2mxejox.jpg
Babes great uncles' name is on the other side of the wall:
http://i31.tinypic.com/2i78d8y.jpg
Babe with Tower Bridge behind:
http://i29.tinypic.com/2lstrgj.jpg
24,000 with no grave but the sea:
http://i30.tinypic.com/2hf742w.jpg
The Memorial:
http://i31.tinypic.com/28r2oax.jpg
Hi Waterways
Thanks for telling us the sad story of your relative lost at sea during the war. As you say, though a deserter from the British Army, he gave the ultimate sacrifice and is correctly honored for that. Very fine photographs as well, Waterways. :handclap:
Chris
The desperate mother whose son was killed on the SS Cermaic. The two sons are on the Memorial at Tower Hill. The U-Boat that sunk her was later sunk by the Americans who took a lot of the crew prisoner. They suspected the U-Boat crew machine gunned the survivors (a lot women on board and some kids), although never proving it. The captain was in a prisoner of war camp in the USA and was shot dead climbing the outer fence.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge
Thanks for that story and lovely photos Waterways.
That sad tale is similar to my in-laws who lost 3 brothers -all aged early 20s at sea and they too are on a memorial at Tower Hill. Strangely enough their father was lost years before them at sea too.
A German submarine has gone on display on Merseyside as the centrepiece of a new exhibition.
The U-534, one of only four remaining in the world, faced an uncertain future after the closure of the Historic Warships Museum in Birkenhead.
It was bought by ferry operator Merseytravel for one Euro (?0.87) in 2007 and cut into four sections, before being taken to Woodside Ferry Terminal.
Visitors can now see inside the vessel as part of the U-Boat Story exhibition.
Each of the vessel's four sections has now been illuminated from the inside with glass panels over each end.
One of the three T11 Zaukonig advanced homing torpedoes found on board is also on display.
Artefacts from the U-534 can be seen in an adjoining exhibition centre, including an Enigma Coding Machine, interactive displays, filmed interviews with survivors, a pictorial history of life on board and personal effects of the crew such as clothing, cigars and playing cards.
Neil Scales, Chief Executive and Director General of Merseytravel, said: "We designed an attraction which reinforces the Mersey Ferries links with the history of underwater warfare - and we have further plans to extend this theme.
"The ferries themselves were awarded the prefix 'Royal' because of the role their predecessors' played in the raid on German U-Boat pens at Zeebrugge during the First World War."
The exhibition opens to the public on Tuesday.
BBC Liverpool
I went across to see it today. It's a bit disappointing not being able to go in/on the boat, but the sections are clearly lit with lots of information boards, and the exhibition centre with displays and things they found on board is fascinating.
Some pictures:
The hole-
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...4Exterior1.jpg
Interior-
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...4Interior1.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...Interior10.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...4Interior3.jpg
Torpedo-
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...13Torpedo1.jpg
Lifeboat-
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...3LifeBoat2.jpg
Camera/films found on board-
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...0213Camera.jpg
The Enigma Coding Machine
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...maMachine2.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...maMachine3.jpg
Brilliant photo's Anna. I don't have to brave the cold to go see it myself now lol