St. Peter's Church, Church Street

Gotcha

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Originally Posted by underworld

Where on Church Street was it? Was it opposite Marks and Spencer and in front of the Bluecoat?

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There's a stone, with a small brass cross,set in the pavement,denoting where the altar was!This is roughly near where H.M.V. was,and a "Jesus saves" guy used to stand near it up to the early 80's! I think Ged's got a pic' of him on his site.

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Originally Posted by darrenwhite100

Diagonally opposite M&S
See the map attached.
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There was a brass cross in the kerb stone where the church was. Not sure if the cross is still there. Altar? Mmm I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Waterways

There was a brass cross in the kerb stone where the church was. Not sure if the cross is still there. Altar? Mmm I doubt it.

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Maltese Cross, in a granite set - it's back there.

The Maltese cross location, in relation to St Peter's church altar. Hopefully this will clear things up a little. Descriptions are given below each image.



http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...GRAVEYARD2.jpg

Image 1 ^ St. Peter's Church, Church Street.

Again, I've scaled the 1848 OS map over the Google earth view.

The green zone highlighted, is the boundary of the graveyard over today's pavement area. So, in fact, you've been walking over consecrated ground without even realising it? :shock: Although, it was probably deconsecrated before the demolition, and certainly before rebuilding.

The blue zone, represents the 'sanctuary' [ie: raised floor area], at the top of the nave, which was accessed by a couple of steps. The altar is located towards the rear of this zone.



http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...GRAVEYARD3.jpg

Image 2 ^ St. Peter's Church, Church Street.

An enlargement of the map above, showing the sanctuary & 'altar' [in blue] and location of the Maltese cross in Church Street, [before you ask - I didn't have a 'Maltese Cross' symbol on my pc?]. Also, part of Church Street and Church Lane's current pavement trespasses over the original graveyard, which I've highlighted in green.



http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a.../St_Peters.jpg

Image 3 ^ 1758 view of the Altar, St. Peter's. Unsourced image.



http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...rLiverpool.jpg

Image 4 ^ St. Peter's Church, Church Street.

Postcard view, early 1900's.



http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...21_08_1919.jpg

Image 5 ^ St. Peter's Church, Church Street. Internal view - LRO image, no date.

Image 6 shows the opposing external view of the window above the altar, from outside in Church Street.




http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a..._Basnet_St.jpg

Image 6 ^ St. Peter's Church, Church Street - looking toward Lord Street



http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...hurch_lane.jpg

Image 7 ^ St. Peter's Church, looking down Church Alley.

The image was taken from in front of Bluecoat School gates. The Crompton Hotel [now M&S] can be seen in the background, with Basnett Street next to it, on the left.



http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...reet_cross.jpg

Image 8 ^ Maltese Cross representing St. Peter's Church, Church Street.

The cross falls outside the plan of the church, but is within the original church yard.[/U]



So where is the Altar now? The position of the actual 'Altar' is probably in one of the shops that now line the arcade through to School Lane. If I had the architect's drawings - I could locate it with some accuracy.

:)

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Originally Posted by Cadfael

Interestingly enough, if you were to stand outside St Helen at St Helen's while the bells rang, you would be transported back to the City Centre (not literally) as the bells from St Peter's Church were saved and put in this tower!

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That?s interesting Cad, the wooden carvings from around the alter are also to be seen in the church in Churchtown near Southport.

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Originally Posted by Samp

That?s interesting Cad, the wooden carvings from around the alter are also to be seen in the church in Churchtown near Southport.

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It's all a bit strange when it comes to the demolition of churches. I know for a fact that the bells from this church went to St Helen's because church bell's always can be found going in to a new home but you wonder what happens to the rest of the stuff once a church is demolished.

As with St Luke's, there were actually a few bells saved from the tower after the fire and the Corporation decided to have them sold for scrap in the 60's! :PDT_Xtremez_42:

When was it demolished? Funny how cemetaries were/are in the centre of towns. The Church in the centre of St Helens shopping area has a cemetary and regulary remains are unearthed by workmen. Also, Palmyra square/park in the centre of Warrington is actually a cemetary with many still buried there.

Brilliant pics and info dazza. I wonder why the church was slightly offset like that, I wonder if Church st originally followed that line but then the church wall is set along the lines of the street as it is now isn't it.

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Originally Posted by underworld

When was it demolished? Funny how cemetaries were/are in the centre of towns. The Church in the centre of St Helens shopping area has a cemetary and regulary remains are unearthed by workmen. Also, Palmyra square/park in the centre of Warrington is actually a cemetary with many still buried there.

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1919 from my source though some say up till 1923. Another sad loss of a church even though it was the 'Pro Cathedral'.

Another ebay...St. Peter's 1916 water colour

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...a/StPeters.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ged

Brilliant pics and info dazza. I wonder why the church was slightly offset like that, I wonder if Church st originally followed that line but then the church wall is set along the lines of the street as it is now isn't it.

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Fantastic pic's and detail Dazza,but I'm pretty sure that I read Church st. was, widened,after the church's demolition,and possibly,this would affect the position of the "altar" cross?

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Originally Posted by wsteve55

Fantastic pic's and detail Dazza,but I'm pretty sure that I read Church st. was, widened,after the church's demolition,and possibly,this would affect the position of the "altar" cross?

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Thanks everyone for your posts, and thanks Ged and wsteve for your questions. Hopefully I'll be able to answer you both below.

Questions raised:

1. Where was the original building line of Church Street, as the street today is much wider?
2. St. Peter's church is set at a different angle to the street. Did the early buildings following this line, or the street line?
3. Where is current position of St Peter's Altar today, and does the Maltese cross sit directly over it, [city myth]?

OK, I think I've managed to answer all of them below. Image descriptions are given below each image.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...urchStmaps.jpg

Image 1 - 4 Maps of Church Street ^ 1725, 1765, 1769 & 1848 from LRO map collections.

John Chadwick's 1725 map - shows the Church Street, 21 years after the completion of St Peter's in 1704. Initially, a plot of land was selected on ground high enough to avoid the tidel extremes of the pool, which flowed across the junction of Lord Street, at that time. The south side of street was developed first, and with the introduction of Church Lane and Church Alley broke the street line into three faceted parts. The buildings of 1725, line through to meet the church's perimeter boundary wall, [ie: graveyard boundary wall with railings, Church St. side].

John Eyes' 1765 map - shows that the pavement kerb edge, not the buildings, lining through with the church's boundary, which is a little confusing because only 4 years later [1769], George Perry surveys the area again, in much greater detail, and showing all the individual buildings - again the buildings now line through with the church's perimeter boundary wall.

The OS 1848 map - shows the building line close to the church boundary, but has started to recede back slightly, making the street marginally wider.

The original street line: The one constant here, is the church precinct [the church + churchyard, or temenos], which is consecrated ground, and is arguably beyond the commercial pressures of shopkeepers and residents that surround it. In general, the north side of churchyards are rarely used - no one wants to be burried where the sun never shines! Sometimes plots on this side were traditionally reserved for criminals, prostitutes, or unworthies. I mention this because church's tended to be positioned on site, to maximize as much of the south-facing aspect as possible, which was the case with St. Peter's. Therefore to move the boundary wall inward [after it's initial placing] would make little sense, similarly moving it outward, would make little sense also, as you would need to re-consecrate the land purchased, and besides that, no one would reserve a plot on the north side of a cemetery anyway, and would be a wasted exercise.

So, we can have confidence, that the church's north perimeter boundary wall, is the one reference which has not been altered through the years.


Answer to Q.1: Church Street's original building line, from 1704, is plotted on Images 2 & 3 below. The street widening and recession away from this line can be seen clearly on Image 3, particularly in the case of the old Post Office. Also see Image 4B, for the PO view.


Answer to Q.2: The buildings follow the street line, not the church's line. When the church-plot was purchased, builders on neighbouring plots would not have wasted any time setting up their designs and commenced building [represented by the thick black dashed line on image 2 & 3]. In setting out St Peter's, the architect, had decided to orientate the building about it's west/ east axis, as was the custom with most unrestricted sites.




http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...EFINALLARG.jpg

Image 2 - Map overlay, Church Street ^ maps from 1848 & Today.

The 1848 map [shown in 'red'] is laid over a current map [shown in 'black'] and the original Church Street building line [1704] is shown in thick dashed line, and the church boundary, is shown in a smaller dashed line.

Image 3 is an enlargement of above.




http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...EFINALSMAL.jpg

Image 3 - Enlargement of image 2 above, Church Street ^ maps from 1848 & Today.


Answer to Q.3: Notice the current arcade [from Church St. through to School Lane & Liverpool One] is shown on the map. I've plotted the actual location of St Peter's altar - which falls within the first unit, on the LH side of the arcade, and also - the Maltese cross is situated on the pavement just outside the arcade's entrance.

Also, notice the 'green' zone on the map which represents the extent of today's pavement over the original graveyard.

I hope this is finally case-closed for the Maltese cross over the altar myth?




http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...rchStviews.jpg

Image 4 - 4 Herdman Views Around Church Street ^ from the LRO Herdman Collection.

Image 4B shows the widening of Church Street, with the demolition of the Old Post Office at the junction of Church St./ Church Alley.


If you've made it this far, thanks very much for reading. :)

I don't know if that's a corner of St. Peter's peeking through in the gap in the buildings on the left but you can certainly see just how far back off the present street line the altar would be.

1910
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...a/churchst.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JMLE

I don't know if that's a corner of St. Peter's peeking through in the gap in the buildings on the left but you can certainly see just how far back off the present street line the altar would be.

1910
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...a/churchst.jpg

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Hi JMLE, I think you're right, just in view. Nice image btw. :thumbsup:

:)

Bloody hell! Dazza, you?ve done it now.

If Tom Slemen finds out about the location of the arcade in relation to the old churchyard and cemetery, we are going to have ghosts and time warps every other week!

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Originally Posted by Samp

Bloody hell! Dazza, you?ve done it now.

If Tom Slemen finds out about the location of the arcade in relation to the old churchyard and cemetery, we are going to have ghosts and time warps every other week!

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No worries Samp, all the remains were all removed in 1868, and re-interred in Anfield cemetery.

Ahhh....but, all the ghosts and spirits remain WOOoooo!!!http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...shocked015.gif.

Thanks for the info'Dazza,but as for the altar,I only repeated the "Myth", as quoted in one of the various Liverpool history books! I can't remember which one,but it looks like they(?) got it wrong! Maybe you should do one? :nod:

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Originally Posted by wsteve55

Thanks for the info'Dazza,but as for the altar,I only repeated the "Myth", as quoted in one of the various Liverpool history books! I can't remember which one,but it looks like they(?) got it wrong! Maybe you should do one? :nod:

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Thanks wsteve55, the cross over altar is a city myth that's been around for as long as it's been set in the pavement. I just thought I'd cross this one off my list.

A book - well, I never say never? Thanks for the thought...

Daz

I thought I'd add a comparison before and after photo of the church.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...rchStview2.jpg

Sorry for being thick, I was there today and saw the brass maltese cross outsid of what is now Keys Court I think its called. Does the cross signify where the entrance to the church was or is that a myth? Also, was this known as the PRO cathedral and what did that mean - protestant? Was it a cathedral?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by underworld

I was there today and saw the brass maltese cross outsid of what is now Keys Court I think its called. Does the cross signify where the entrance to the church was or is that a myth? Also, was this known as the PRO cathedral and what did that mean - protestant? Was it a cathedral?

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A Pro-cathedral is a parish church that is temporarily serving as the cathedral or co-cathedral of a diocese. It can be Prothestant or Catholic.

Maltese Cross - it's all explained on Post No. 20, on this thread [copied below]. Sorry if most have seen this before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dazza

Thanks everyone for your posts, and thanks Ged and wsteve for your questions. Hopefully I'll be able to answer you both below.

Questions raised:

1. Where was the original building line of Church Street, as the street today is much wider?
2. St. Peter's church is set at a different angle to the street. Did the early buildings following this line, or the street line?
3. Where is current position of St Peter's Altar today, and does the Maltese cross sit directly over it, [city myth]?

OK, I think I've managed to answer all of them below. Image descriptions are given below each image.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...urchStmaps.jpg

Image 1 - 4 Maps of Church Street ^ 1725, 1765, 1769 & 1848 from LRO map collections.

John Chadwick's 1725 map - shows the Church Street, 21 years after the completion of St Peter's in 1704. Initially, a plot of land was selected on ground high enough to avoid the tidel extremes of the pool, which flowed across the junction of Lord Street, at that time. The south side of street was developed first, and with the introduction of Church Lane and Church Alley broke the street line into three faceted parts. The buildings of 1725, line through to meet the church's perimeter boundary wall, [ie: graveyard boundary wall with railings, Church St. side].

John Eyes' 1765 map - shows that the pavement kerb edge, not the buildings, lining through with the church's boundary, which is a little confusing because only 4 years later [1769], George Perry surveys the area again, in much greater detail, and showing all the individual buildings - again the buildings now line through with the church's perimeter boundary wall.

The OS 1848 map - shows the building line close to the church boundary, but has started to recede back slightly, making the street marginally wider.

The original street line: The one constant here, is the church precinct [the church + churchyard, or temenos], which is consecrated ground, and is arguably beyond the commercial pressures of shopkeepers and residents that surround it. In general, the north side of churchyards are rarely used - no one wants to be burried where the sun never shines! Sometimes plots on this side were traditionally reserved for criminals, prostitutes, or unworthies. I mention this because church's tended to be positioned on site, to maximize as much of the south-facing aspect as possible, which was the case with St. Peter's. Therefore to move the boundary wall inward [after it's initial placing] would make little sense, similarly moving it outward, would make little sense also, as you would need to re-consecrate the land purchased, and besides that, no one would reserve a plot on the north side of a cemetery anyway, and would be a wasted exercise.

So, we can have confidence, that the church's north perimeter boundary wall, is the one reference which has not been altered through the years.


Answer to Q.1: Church Street's original building line, from 1704, is plotted on Images 2 & 3 below. The street widening and recession away from this line can be seen clearly on Image 3, particularly in the case of the old Post Office. Also see Image 4B, for the PO view.


Answer to Q.2: The buildings follow the street line, not the church's line. When the church-plot was purchased, builders on neighbouring plots would not have wasted any time setting up their designs and commenced building [represented by the thick black dashed line on image 2 & 3]. In setting out St Peter's, the architect, had decided to orientate the building about it's west/ east axis, as was the custom with most unrestricted sites.




http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...EFINALLARG.jpg

Image 2 - Map overlay, Church Street ^ maps from 1848 & Today.

The 1848 map [shown in 'red'] is laid over a current map [shown in 'black'] and the original Church Street building line [1704] is shown in thick dashed line, and the church boundary, is shown in a smaller dashed line.

Image 3 is an enlargement of above.




http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...EFINALSMAL.jpg

Image 3 - Enlargement of image 2 above, Church Street ^ maps from 1848 & Today.


Answer to Q.3: Notice the current arcade [from Church St. through to School Lane & Liverpool One] is shown on the map. I've plotted the actual location of St Peter's altar - which falls within the first unit, on the LH side of the arcade, and also - the Maltese cross is situated on the pavement just outside the arcade's entrance.

Also, notice the 'green' zone on the map which represents the extent of today's pavement over the original graveyard.

I hope this is finally case-closed for the Maltese cross over the altar myth?




http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...rchStviews.jpg

Image 4 - 4 Herdman Views Around Church Street ^ from the LRO Herdman Collection.

Image 4B shows the widening of Church Street, with the demolition of the Old Post Office at the junction of Church St./ Church Alley.


If you've made it this far, thanks very much for reading. :)

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Great stuff Daza. Nice one.

Fine work here, Dazza. You've put a lot of effort into this and it is appreciated! :handclap:

C :PDT_Aliboronz_24:

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Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge

Fine work here, Dazza. You've put a lot of effort into this and it is appreciated! :handclap:

C :PDT_Aliboronz_24:

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Thanks for that Chris. I like playing around with maps, photo's etc... So hopefully it'll help explain the Maltese Cross / Altar myth.

Fantastic Darren :)

Cheers Kev. :PDT_Aliboronz_24:

A truly fascinating and informative thread. Many thanks to everyone for this. I'll never walk past this site again without imagining the old church there!

I may have missed it if it's been mentioned previously, but should note that, as well as the brass cross, the old church is also commemorated by the cross keys of St. Peter which can still be seen carved high on the facade of what was the Woolworth's building (the first one in Britain).

In 1880 John Charles Ryle was appointed the first Bishop of Liverpool and was installed in Saint Peter?s Church, the Pro-Cathedral, which was later described by the Rector of Liverpool as ?ugly & hideous?...

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Originally Posted by knowhowe

is also commemorated by the cross keys of St. Peter which can still be seen carved high on the facade of what was the Woolworth's building (the first one in Britain).

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Though it was originally on the other side of Church st.

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Originally Posted by Ged

Though it was originally on the other side of Church st.

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Ged/ knowhowe,

The cross keys are picked up in an earlier thread. See post #24 here.

Maybe we should joined these threads together? I'll see what Kev thinks?

D.

Crossed Keys are traditionally a symbol of St. Peter - being the first pope, and keeper to the gates of heaven.

We can see that the original architect of "Keys Court" [another reference] has deliberately set out to recreate these 'gates of heaven' in the building's facade design. Basically, the area where the new bronze infill panels [incl. clock] are located - suggesting a great portal, or entrance.

At the top of this suggested 'gateway' is a pair of sculptured "crossed keys", which reinforces the architectural metaphor below, of a god-proportioned entrance. Similar to the giant doorways you often see on Greek temples.

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Woolworths - this was also the site of Woolworths, as I'm sure they'll be lots of members who can still remember it there? The first Woolies originally started across the street in 1909, [as St. Peter's church occupied this site from 1704-1922]. The original Woolworth building still stands today, and can be viewed here in post #52, which is the Clarke's shoeshop in the photo. It was previously the 'Henry Miles' shop, which you can see in the postcard view, opposite to St. Peter's, which is just visible on the right. The original store front that faced St Peter's church [for 13 years] can also be seen.

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Images - 1. Keys Court entrance, and 2. close up. 3. pre-1909 view of Church St. [looking towards Central Stn], 4. The original Woolworths Church St. shopfront.

Apologies, the image resolution is not great on the second image - hopefully, someone with a super powerful zoom lens can take some detailed shots for us all when passing? Any volunteers? :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ged

Though it was originally on the other side of Church st.

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Think your right there,Ged! (oops,didn't finish the thread!)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ged

Though it was originally on the other side of Church st.

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Oops. Quite right.

The thread about Liverpool's Woolies is very interesting-

http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/sho...d=1#post207149

I've added a bit there about the first Woolies here in Chester.

Here is a postcard view from 1904.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2735/...901a0c8b_b.jpg

Hi Philip,
You are right about Churches of Liverpool. It does suffer from a number of factual inaccuracies and I was never entirely happy with it. The major problem was the lack of an index - which makes navigate the book very frustrating. I am planning a revised book - with many new photos (again I was disappointed with the printing - it was in the early days of digital photography and there is quite a bit of bitmapping).
How is Tramride to Walton[/I] coming on. Still interested.

Hi guys my first post and im not from Liverpool (sorry)

Firstly I am an architecture student and i am doing my dissertation on churches and I can tell you why St Peters does not "line up" with the street. This is to do with the alter facing exactly east in the direction of Bethlehem. I also have a question as I am currently doing a theoretical project on church street which is partially about remembering the church which is the founding of the streets name ( I assume). I am wondering what the church was built out of I suspect it is either portland stone or sandstone but im not sure and it would greatly help me with my project? I very much enjoyed reading this thread and found the information about the keys on the old woolworths building and the Maltese Cross on the floor of particular interest, I hadnt noticed them when i was there. It is a shame that they are so easy to walk past and not notice as the church was the founding of the street. I hope my answer is of interest and that someone knows the answer to my question.

Thanks

Hi and welcome.

This is a fascinating thread, glad it's been ressurected. :PDT11
I've just read through all the posts and it's very interesting.

Hi STE, and welcome to Yo!

As you predicted, St Peters is aligned exactly on a West/East axis, (as in Greek, Roman & Christian religions.) There was very little built on the north side of Church Street at the time of its consecration in 1704. If you were lucky enough to attend the first service - and travelling in from Lord Street, you would have crossed a stone bridge, over the Pool, to access Church Street, as the Old Dock was not completed for another 11 years, in 1715.

I believe the church/pro-cathedral was constructed from red sandstone, similar, if not the same as the Anglican cathedral stonework.

Welcome back dazza. Nice description of the walk up to the church.

Ditto.