Nice one WW. Had a look at the site, excellent. Did you do that?
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Nice one WW. Had a look at the site, excellent. Did you do that?
yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by pablo42
You're a smart bugger on the sly...Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
Well done.
Thanks WW, I enjoyed going through the skyscraper site, very interesting.
Inspired by those images you posted, I thought I'd try and locate the Pottery, based on the 1835 Jonathan Bennison Map, and the 1906 OS map. Here's the results:
The comparison places the Potteries in the Harrington Dock, and the 'Iron Works' just to the left of it. c.1835.
D.
I always thought it was at the Herc, near to where the Dingle Tunnel portal is, unless it expanded after 1835.
My Dad said that South Liverpool FC once played at Horsfall St before moving to Dingle Lane. If they did it must have been on the Forge's North Yard, which was just big enough to have a football pitch. He was usually right is his history recollections. His first football game was watching South Liverpool at Dingle Lane sitting on his Dad's shoulders.
I've just checked the Peter Hyland book, [The Herculaneum Pottery]. The potteries only survived for 44 years. They set up site in 1796, and the operation had folded by 1840. 5 years after the Jonathan Bennison map was drawn. The road at the eastern boundary of the pottery site was 'Wellington Road' which is shown on both maps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
The 1835 map just refers to 'Iron Works' - I suspect the beginnings of the Mersey Forge?
D.
Excellent memories WW. I can't imagine playing footy amidst all that soot and polution the forge must've been belting out in those days?Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
South Liverpool: I wonder what their kit was like?
I think the Forge had gone by then, 1898. They may have been using the vacant site temporarily.Quote:
Originally Posted by dazza
The Forge, later named the Mersey Steel and Iron Works, I am sure moved because of dock expansion. The iron frames of three churches were early 1800s, so the forge on the foreshore in the 1835 map would have made those. The Forge moved back inland, and expanded greatly, after the docks took the foreshore. Harrington Dock opened in 1844, although closed to make way for new alignment works in the early 1880s, as was Toxteth Dock. The initial Harrington Dock dealt in timber and small shipbuilding. The expanded dock dispensed with ships and was used for cargo liners, particularly the Elder Dempster Line and is as you see today, only there is no water any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by dazza
By 1835 Brunswick Dock was opened, 1832. Brunswick was constructed on the site of the dam of the tidal mill, known as Jackson's Dam.
Did the Pottery close because of dock expansion rather than business reasons? Early versions of CPO's? Or a combination of both? It was on the site of an old copper works.
The Mersey Steel and Iron Company was founded in 1810 by Ralph Clay.
It later moved inland and eventually occupied a vast site.
The main reason it closed was that residents in the Wirral complained of the noise coming from the hammer.
Off hand, I'm not sure when it closed, but 1890s sounds about right.
In 1908 Griffiths mentions the "deserted and ruined remains".
Corn Street and Yates Street were built there simply because the mill owned the land.
The map shows that fact.
They would have to have been built high because of "rights to light".
Bran and Grain Streets were also built for the Mill workers.
Yates Sreet was named after the famous family who lived at the Dingle.
I think you're right. I've also revised & re-posted the map [on post#44] showing the 'forge', as I found a few errors on the Jonathan Bennison map of 1835. The angle of streets [crossing each other] were way out, when I laid the more accurate 1906 OS version over it. Problem fixed now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
The pottery site closed in 1840, so four years to excavate and construct the new Harrington Dock? Does this sound feasible to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
Peter Hyland gives the answer in his book, The Herculaneum Pottery. Whilst acknowledging that Wedgewood is often cited as the 'reason' behind the failure of The Herculaneum Pottery. He points out that Wedgewood were well established by the 1760's, well before Herculaneum came on the scene in 1796. So, they would have known the score from the beginning of the venture. By 1836 '51,000 tonnes of earthenware and china were sent to the Liverpool docks from the Staffordshire potteries.'Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
The main reason PH gives is two-fold. Firstly, the collapsing market and taste for blue transfer-printed ware had virtual dissappeared by 1840. Other potteries, in direct competition with Herculaneum, had also ceased trading by this time, 'victims of changing tastes and the need for more efficient production methods.
Secondly, and perhaps the main reason, was that two private Acts were passed in parliament in 1840, and 1846 for the development of Herculaneum Dock. PH further says that 'in any case, the Herculaneum Dock as eventually completed did not occupy any part of the pottery site, being a few hundred yards up the river in an area formally known as pottery beach.'
The site previously, as you mentioned, was a copper-smelting works, est. 1767 by Charles Roe & Co, a firm based in Macclesfield.
Here are some dates.
1836/05/??. Docks: Harrington Dock Company determined on, May 1836. Toxteth.
1840/08/04 Docks: Harrington. The bills for the Herculaneum and Harrington Docks, Toxteth, were passed, 4 August 1840.
1841 Herculaneum Pottery, Toxteth, closed 1841. The site was occupied by the Harrington Dock.
1848 Docks The Herculaneum and Harrington Docks, Toxteth, received the royal assent in 1848.
1864 Herculaneum Dock, Toxteth, opened 1864.
Would a dock be built before it had received the royal assent?
I find it difficult to accept that the works closed because of people on the relatively sparsely populated Wirral opposite. It must be approaching 1 mile at that point. If they were told to stop the hammer, it would not mean a full closure of operations. The Sheffield steel mills were highly competitive by then. Also the site is small by steel mill standards with no space to expand. The council and MDHB were concentrating on lucrative commercial trade expansion - docks and warehouses - rather than large scale manufacturing, so expansion of such a plant would not be encouraged. Many points were against the Forge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quentin_Sharples
Herculaneum Pottery
This was one of the most famous of toxteth's industries and it produced high-quality earthenware and porcelain from about 1793 to 1841. "This pottery, the largest ever established in Liverpool, was founded in 1796 on the site of some old copper works on the south shore of the River Mersey at Toxteth Park". The story is however a little more long winded!
In 1793 Charles Roe's Copper works was closed and the land was offered for sale. This was in 1794, as the advertisement (below, left) shows, although the lease on the land commenced in 1792. This may account for the varying dates given for the beginning of the pottery.
Foundation : The land was bought by Richard Abbey (1720-1801) and a small pottery was established here soon afterwards. Abbey, was born in Liverpool, at Aintree and was apprenticed to one John Sadler as an engraver in the firm of Sadler and Green. Whilst working under Sadler he produced many notable designs for mugs, jugs and tiles. After leaving Sadler, Abbey moved to Glasgow, as an engraver at the potworks. Later he was similarly employed in France. He then returned to Liverpool where at the age of 70, he went into business for himself in partnership with a Scotsman named Graham.
New owners : Messrs. Abbey and Graham, made a success of their factory at Toxteth Park and sold it to a consortium named Worthington, Humble and Holland. Abbey retired to Aintree, where he died in 1801.
Humble and Holland called their pottery 'Herculaneum' in the way that Josiah Wedgwood had chosen to call his new colony 'Etruria'. 'Herculaneum' and a variety of crowns were stamped on their products thoughout the history of the pottery, although not, apparently, on all of the early wares.
Humble and Holland engaged as foreman and manager, a skilled thrower, Ralph Mansfield of Burslem and with him about forty men, women and children were hired from Staffordshire and brought to Liverpool. The buildings acquired from Richard Abbey were enlarged, the arrangements remodelled, new ovens and workshops erected and houses for the workmen were erected. The little colony was peopled in the middle of November 1796 and the expanded works were opened on the 8th December 1796 which is the date usually attributed to the start of the Herculaneum Pottery proper.
The Potters: Forty or so of these potters and their families, led by skilled thrower, Archibald Mansfield from Burslem, arrived en masse on 11th November 1796 and were escorted by crowds and bands of musicians. The potters occupied houses which were specially built for them. It is suggested that Park Terrace in Grafton Street between Beresford Road and Thornton's yard, were some of these. The small houses which formerly stood between Wellington Road and Harlow Street in what was Chapel Place, off Grafton Street, were known locally as `The Potteries' (see entry in Gore for 1858) and may also have been some of the houses for which the potters drew lots on their journey up the canal and river to their new homes. At that time of course, houses and buildings stood on land which has since been cleared to make way for the Railway and the Docks.
Pearlware 1829The first productions were blue-printed wares. Dinner, toilet, tea, and coffee services, punch-bowls, mugs and jugs were made. This blue-printing may have been a practical adaption of what fate bestowed in the form of copper residues from Roe's works which are said to have tinged the early wares blue. Soon after cream-coloured ware, which was then fashionable was made and later, terracotta vases and other articles were produced. The cream-coloured or Queen's ware, is considered of fine quality and as well crafted as any available.
In 1800 and again in 1806, the manufactory was considerably increased, as was the number of partners in the firms. Much of the pottery was exported to the USA and Canada.
It was not only cheap quality goods that were made here, as examples in the Liverpool Museum show. Fine porcelain was made and indeed continued to be produced, from now until the time of the closing of the works. The plate, (above, left), is Pearlware from 1820.
In 1833, the Herculaneum Pottery Company was officially dissolved and the property sold for £25,000 to Ambrose Lace.
The remaining stock was then sold, as a clipping the Liverpool Mercury Feb 22nd 1833 shows. Ambrose Lace in turn leased the premises to Thomas Case and James Mort, who carried on the business for three more years.
During this period a Liver bird was added to the factory markings. It was during their tenureship that a notable dinner service was made for the Corporation of Liverpool. It was blue-printed, and had on each piece the arms of Liverpool engraved.
In about 1836, Case, Mort and Co. was also dissolved to be succeeded by Mort & Simpson, who traded until the pottery finally closed in 1841 caused by competition from the Staffordshire potteries. This was the end of Liverpool's last pottery.
Reference material :-
Smith, Alan: Illustrated Guide to Liverpool Herculaneum Pottery (Barrie & Jenkins, London, 1970)
Jewitt's Ceramic Art of Great Britain 1800-1900
Gore's Directory 1858
I was a little confused here.
St. Michael in the Hamlet and Everton Church were, developed by John Cragg of
the Mersey Iron Foundry, situated in Tithebarn Street and not the Mersey Forge with which it has been linked or confused.
http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/att...8&d=1223423172
To the bottom right, just left of the gas tank, a part of the Mersey Forge site has not been built on even to this day. Maybe ground contamination, so expensive to treat.
Look at this
The windmill picture shown in post 33 isn't a LRO picture but features on p50 of 'A tram ride to Dingle' book (just to save anyone looking for it in the LRO).
Has anyone heard if there is a mill-stone in the Large Objects Museum, as I've heard they have one, and probably from this mill? I'm going from memory, and can't seem to locate any information about it.
Here's the Herculaneum Pottery & Iron Works c.1835
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...ArielPhoto.jpg
Hi Quentin, that's one possibility I've already considered, but I think the decision to errect the terrace was born out of practicality, in overcoming a difficult site? Have you also considered the 1835 map in post#23?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quentin_Sharples
The natural topography of the land owned by the mill was on considerably higher ground [presumably one of the attractions of it's purchase], and this formed a bank which closely traces the street-line of Yates Street, and Beaufort Street. I don't really favour the Rights of Light rationale, simply because there are only terrace housing, gable-ends opposing Yates Street - not much of an obstacle to natural light I would've thought? Also the church at the end of the road, occupies a corner site with not too much over-shadowing burden over the rest of Yates Street.
I think the terrace was a consequence of two things: 1. the mill owner's possessed the land, and had to develop within the existing boundary. And 2. the land was at a higher elevation to that of the neighborhood.
Excellent work WW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterways
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazza
Of course I agree with all that, but Corn, Bran and Grain Streets were built after the mill was well established. By which time it contained some rather tall buildings.
Apart from the fact that Corn Street, and the neighbouring Yates Street were built on a ridge, they were still further elevated (to the height of the factory?), and built all at one level, rather than being "stepped".
"Rights to light" was a main consideration.
I' so glad I asked now! It's coming together
Liverpool Mercury December 11th 1840.
Herculaneum Pottery, everything to be sold.
"Now about to be pulled down for the Erection of Docks"
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e..._1840_Herc.jpg
You could well be right? "Rights to light" would indeed explain the extra-over 'elevated' terrace in Corn Street, as you pointed out. And looking at Google streetview, the eaves of the terraces do line through with the eaves of the newer factory sited there? Also, the car park appears to be raised over where Bran Street once was. This is supported by the 1906 OS map, as it shows a 'solid' pavement line, for terracing, rather than 'dotted', for normal paving - suggesting a higher elevation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quentin_Sharples
Thanks marky, that was very interesting. December 11th 1840, advertised in the Liverpool Mercury. The main auction day on the 15th Dec, with the last items of the catalogue: the 'Horses, Carts & a.' being sold on the 18th December.Quote:
Originally Posted by marky
Open question: with the last items of sale being the 18th Dec. 1840. I'm assuming it would have taken some time to complete the final accounts, and pay off any outstanding creditors, before dissolving the company fully? And considering that Christmas was the following week - are we looking at 1841, as the date that the company ceased. ie:
Herculaneum Pottery 1796-1841, [or is it '1840', when it ceased manufacturering?]
A CPO, of the day, no doubt. If the docks were not being expanded then it would probably be a viable industry. They exported a lot to the USA and the city had the finest connections with America. Shipping costs to the USA would be less as the docks were adjacent.Quote:
Originally Posted by marky
Yes thats rightQuote:
Originally Posted by kdraper42
I can't understand someone coming from that area not knowing that.
My Dad was born in a house a little further down off cockburn street earl 1900's
he often talked of Mills around there
not just a Mill.