Did Tom respond to that letter?
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Did Tom respond to that letter?
I doubt it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Max
If there ever posted on his forums, he usually just brushes them off as jealous people writing nonsense but never read him respond to the leters on a more public newspaper.
You would think that part of TS and KA research would have been to find and contact KAW, possible proof that their research isn't up to much :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
Wow, thank you Ged. What a good read. I read some before I went out this morning for aquatics class and could not wait to read more. My mother is from Baden Road and she and her family swear their house was haunted. They all saw a woman in grey. An ANGRY WOMAN at that, my mother said she used to hit her!! lol Never heard that before. My father who did not believe in ghosts also said he saw something and felt someone pass him when he stayed over on the couch one night when he was dating my mother. (Air raid sirens went off as he was leaving)
Now I will be google-ing to find out more about this.
Interestingly the Diocese of Liverpool's web site makes no mention of slave graves. Where did this urban myth come from?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev
The Diocese of Liverpool | The Church of England
Hi taffyQuote:
Originally Posted by taffy
It seems very doubtful to me that there could be many "slave graves"--if any--at St. James's. As we have discussed, very few slaves came to Liverpool, the vast bulk having been delivered to British colonies in the West Indies rather than coming to England. As you said, if there are any graves of blacks there, it would seem more likely that they may be graves of servants.
All the best
Chris
From the first entry in this thread, because I'd never heard it before. :PDT_Piratz_26:Quote:
Originally Posted by taffy
It's so easy to make gullible people believe anything.
Turns out there is an element of truth to this tale;
Check out Friends of St James Church Toxteth and you will find a list of registers of baptisms of 'negros' in St James Toxteth.
Although most of the records just list 'negro' there are a few 'mulattos' and at least one indian but there is only one mention of slavery:
(A negro) Was Baptised; With The Consent; Approbation Of His Master Thomas Aspinall Esq.
So at least one slave was baptised there - so church certainly does seem to have links with the slave population, freed or otherwise.
There is however no mention of burials at the church, if I get the chance I might have a look at the St James records myself and see what I can find.
The full transcript of records is here St James Toxteth Website
I suspect the negro James Thomas baptised 1792 at St James was more a servant than a slave. Ownership of slaves living in England has been abolished in England about 30 years earlier. The term Master was a commonly used to describe the employer & employee relationship. It does not imply ownership as such.Quote:
Originally Posted by fortinian
Such negro baptisms would have been fairly common in Liverpool in the last quarter of the 18th C. Many slaves fought for England during the American War of Independance and were effectively granted their freedom. Many chose to live in Canada eg Nova Scotia but they had the right to live in England.
Just checked out the Friends of St James Toxteth web site mentioned in an earlier message
Friends of St James Church Toxteth
I believe this group is now defunct.
Am visiting the church in the next few weeks via a contact so armed with my camera, I will take lots of pictures and report back on the interior. :PDT11
Of course Taffy you are right. I didn't really know about the Somersett Case in the 1770s which effectively made it illegal for anyone to be a slave on Englands soil. So I don't know where this idea of actual slaves has come from.
I think this is just one of those many Liverpool rumours that have a root in fact but branch out to a whole canopy of historial confusion.
Hi taffyQuote:
Originally Posted by taffy
Thanks, taffy. Although I do not know the full facts of the St. James's church internments or St. James cemetery burials of blacks, one of my areas of interest has been blacks in the War of 1812. I also know that, as you factually say, blacks did fight for the British during the American War of Independence. Indeed as mentioned in an article that I wrote, George, Christopher T. ?Mirage of Freedom: African Americans in the War of 1812, ? Maryland Historical Magazine, Vol. 91, No. 4 (Winter 1996): 427-450, during the Revolution, Lord Dunmore, the deposed governor of Virginia, offered freedom to escaped slaves and they fought for him in what was termed an "Ethiopian Regiment."
Similarly during the War of 1812 some 3,000 to 5,000 former slaves were transported out of the Chesapeake, largely to Halifax, Nova Scotia, and some 200 men were trained as "Colonial Marines" fighting with the British in actions in spring to fall 1814 in the Chesapeake. These latter men were later rewarded with land in Trinidad and their descendents live today in three "company towns" in Trinidad. See The Corps of Colonial Marines, research by John McNish Weiss.
All the best
Chris
This is really a facinating thread.
Thanks ChrisGeorge and Taffy.
Wanting to find out whether this story was tripe from the local rag (as usual), I contacted the new vicar and offered to design and promote a website on the plight of St James. With that, and with interest in what lay in the bell tower, I was invited down to the church today to be given full access by the Vicar.
The vicar is not requesting any further tours because of the condition of the whole church. Today was at my own risk and only because I had been in and out of bell chambers for 25 years. He has not yet seen the bell chamber himself and was happy for me to show him around!
We also went down in to the cellar system in which the night vision on the camera came in handy.
As usual, the local rag got it wrong. At this stage, all ideas are being considered, from digging up the bodies to just rafting over the entire site and building an extension to the church on one side.
It is a lovely lovely church and I only wish I could own it myself!
Reaching the tower was by a new set of wooden steps (there had been a fire in the tower at some point), followed by two rather shaky ladders and then up in to the clock room and bell frame. There appears to be a totally unused bell frame with a single bell (about 13cwt - no inscription) but it was very good to see inside such a rare place.
There were lots of memorials inside the church, some dedicated to slave traders!!
I will issue more pictures once the website is up and running, again please don't pester the vicar for a visit as it won't happen, but I have no problems in sharing my pictures so you can all have a nose - feel free to pass them on but they are copyright of me so permission if you want to use them elsewhere.
Cad.
http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/q...Picture127.jpg
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Cheers for the pics Cad :PDT_Piratz_26:
excellent photos Cad :PDT_Piratz_26:
Interesting pics, Cad, thank you.
To go off topic for a mo', just as as a matter of interest, does anyone know the significance of the 'rabbit'(?) on the church bell tower? There's a polar bear on the building on the corner of Prescot Road /Sheil Road in similar style.
Anon
Great Photos - thanks for posting.
It's part of the Liverpool Biennial Arts FestivalQuote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Thanks very much for sharing the photos Cad :)
Oh thank God, that means it can't last forever, right? It's hideous.Quote:
Originally Posted by taffy
Don't worry, next time I'm up the tower, I'll change the fuse so it blows when it's turned on :PDT_Aliboronz_24:Quote:
Originally Posted by annajane
Your secret is safe with us:PDT_Piratz_26:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadfael
Bad luck, it's not really part of the Biennial which ends in November but something called "Winter Lights" and as such will be there until February. Artist Ron Haselden has worked with primary schools to brighten up dark empty spaces. "Rabbit" is a 20 foot neon version of a drawing by a pupil of St Vincent de Paul's primary school. If you view it from the Cathedral Estate, as you go around the Pool of Light installation, you can't see the church and it just looks like a giant rabbit bouncing in the air. I like it - I think it's fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by annajane
Was looking up the church today and have to agree that the blacks registered there are most likely Black Loyalists. I came across an article in the Daily Post from aApril 2007 about a group called the Lighthouse who are dedicated to preserving the church - their members include Pat Neill, Robin
Riley and Lawrence Westgraph.
The article says that many Black Loyalists frequented the church and by the 1780s, many people knew that one of the best ways of protecting yourself from being enslaved again was to get baptised, hence the rush to the nearest church to be baptised!
The Parish Registers which still exist show many African and West Indian names although Lawrence also says that some of the black people in the records were definitely slaves. For instance, there's a young negro baptised in 1792, "with the consent and approbation of his master Thomas Aspinall esq." a well known slave trader from this period. The lad in question may have worked as a domestic servant but with no chance of return home, then that's surely slavery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge
I thought that our website could support this event happening on 04 April 2009. I work in a school in Liverpool 8 and friends and supporters of the church have arranged this event as follows:
ST. JAMES? OPEN DAY - Saturday 04 April
Chocol8 Hunt
Aim:
? Engage with local community & provide information about what we are planning with the St. James building.
? Gain feedback about how local people think the building and churchyard could be used.
What we?re planning for the day:
2.00 ? 4.00pm
? Power point presentation about St. James church inside the building
? Display about the church
? Chocol8 Hunt (Fairtraded chocolate eggs hidden in the churchyard for children to find)
? Face painting
? Egg painting
? Beat the goalie
? Pop the balloons on the bunny
? Refreshments ? soft drinks & hot chocolate
They are sending some flyers to our school shortly, in the meantime I've just cut and pasted the info sent through today.
Hope there's some interest! Will keep you informed
St James Church, Toxteth has been officially closed for about 35 years. The Church of England has now officially regained legal ownership of the Church from the Churches Conservation Trust. Services have been regularly held in the church since September 2009 at 4pm on Sunday afternoons. Fascinatingly, these services are held inside a tent inside the building. So if you've ever felt the need to worship God in a tent, Liverpool now has this facility !!!
The church is run by the Rev Neil Short who has been tasked with bringing the church fully back to life. He will be officially inducted by the Bishop of Liverpool to the new Parish of Liverpool St James in the City on Sunday November 22nd at 4pm at the Church. Here's the web site for St James in the City
http://www.stjamesinthecity.org.uk/
This must be one of the few times that a redundant church building has been brought back to use as a Church.
That's certainly one for the books!! Have you been inside Taf'? I've passed it many times,but was unaware of it's status,till I saw it on here!Quote:
Originally Posted by taffy
Ready for Christmas bingo:PDT_Piratz_26:Quote:
Originally Posted by taffy
Not for a tent service but I have been inside a few times over the last few years. The tent is there simply to give a more manageable space to heat in the short term. The title of this thread is misleading as there are no current plans to dig up 2500 bodies and no slaves are buried in the churchyardQuote:
Originally Posted by wsteve55
It's great to see that it's being restored for it's original purpose and not being demolished or turned into a wine bar....Good luck to everyone concerned.:PDT11
Well at least for the Christmas Service !!! Bingo does provide an important social function though.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsaZappathing