I did too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
Where were you Ged! I thought you should have been there when they were filming :)
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I did too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
Where were you Ged! I thought you should have been there when they were filming :)
It's repeated on BBC4 again at 8pm on Thursday. It was mainly Darn Sarf but showed small excerpts of 'Home for the Workers' - there are better bits imho but he got the jist of it over. Paul Sudbury talked of the sense of belonging and how your elders and parents all knew you so there was no getting up to no good as it'd get back to your parents double quick time - you were kept in check. These days some kids are pretty much anonymous to those areas they hang around which can lead to a disrespect of the area and its inhabitants though that by no means in the vast majority of youngsters.
Regarding the housing aspect. It was pretty good even to see other parts of the country. It mentioned Letchworth - the first garden city, but didn't mention that John Alexander Brodie's pioneering pre-fabricated houses were trialed there. Flats of this building type were built on Eldon Street in 1905.
---------- Post added at 11:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 PM ----------
I couldn't make the filming as I had too much on in work but 3 of the Sudbury's were there and that bit with the Myrtle Gardens residents was quite good. It showed how when renovated, rooms were knocked through to make a bigger living area and what could have been done with many more of these flats.Quote:
Originally Posted by lindylou
I thought it was very interesting. It was good to see how the different areas of the Country dealt with housing shortages after the war (WW1 & WW2). Some real innovations including under floor heating, waste dispenses and indoor toilets. I thought all the contributers did well, putting a human face on what some people see as cold and souless places to have lived.
I particulary enjoyed the Liverpool segment (circa 20 minutes in), and always thought the design of our tenements was one of the best, inspired by 1930s Art Deco. The constant theme throughout the programme was 'a sense of belonging', Jimmy McGovern put it right when he said these were not Council Houses, this was our home. There was a pride felt by most of the residents, with a strong sense of community, something that is missing today. It was heartening to see the family from Myrtle Gardens returning to their home after 50 years.
A great piece of social history, well worth a watch.
Liverpool Corporation sent a delegation over to Eastern Europe on a mission to see their mass social housing.
Here is the Horseshoe in Britz, Berlin.
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/4...ritzberlin.jpg
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And the Karl Marx Hof in Vienna.
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/3...xhofvienna.jpg
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Heck,that has got to be the worst Tennies I've ever seen...those cluster of trees are not helping either and would block out the light for some residents.
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We have said this before and we will keep on saying it,that the council did a the most stupidest decision of demolishing the the gardens and tennies.
Alls they needed was a revamp and lifts installed where the stairs used to be dotted around the construction,the central areas could have been grassed over which gives the kids area to play footie and what not.
But thats our council for you.
Yes, it's interesting to hear the ex residents and how they enjoyed their time there.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueJeans
Coming from a quiet terraced street, the huge tenements looked somewhat foreboding to me. I can't explain why, maybe it was the sheer size of them or they just looked so different from a small terraced street. I would see them when going past on the bus and they did fascinate me - the strange shape of them, different colour brick, the different style of windows, the echo sounds, the landings. They were a very different way of living to me.
Also, seeing these places in the 1970s in the throes of their demise and not seeing them when they were first new when they were smart and innovative didn't help :)
Yes, hearing the residents stories definitely puts a human face to it.
One of Paul's reasons for making the Gardens of Stone film was dispel the preconceptions, myths even that these places were the breeding grounds of thugs and were forboding to strangers who didn't accept them into the fold. It's true that certain 'Squares' were competitive against each other but as seen in inter-square football match or bonfire night rivalry, it rarely descended into anything like the recent Crocky/Norris Green tribalism for instance.
Paul's work colleagues would express disdain and sometimes downright shock horror when he dare confirmed he hailed from Gerard Crescent (at the time containing the longest unbroken run of landings in Europe, if not the world) You see these people were from the leafy suburbs of Crosby and Thornton and the like. Their sole glimpses of Gerard Gardens were from the buses which passed alongside the main arch where they would catch sight of all these ruffians chasing after a ball - the sound of maybe 50 kids echoing all around.
In truth, I knew a few kids that visited our square from other places and they were accepted like anyone else from anywhere else. The residents there were no more angels, but no more scally than anywhere else and now through than film, some people are a little more enlightened. One ex resident when interviewed at the end tells of how his daughter was speaking to someone who remarked that her dad must have been a hard knock to live there. He said to her 'No girl, it wasn't like that at all'. Some of the most genuine people i've ever met still to this day lived in that place.
Ged, you are right about the tribalism we have these days on some of our estates.
There has just been a lady talking on Radio Merseyside phone ins and she gave a good long talk about how good last nights programme was. She explained much the same about the history of the tenement and other council estates. Very interesting and makes you think again and view things in a different light.
Re council estates,we have seen how smart these places were when they started off ( and remained so for many years) but there has been much talk about how the places deteriorated and became run down.
The people in the film, and other people talking in general, say how proud the residents were of their new homes, how they took pride in their environment and everyone kept their own little patch clean and tidy. Even though it belonged to the council it was your home. That's why the estates stayed so nice for so long. They commented how that pride is a thing of the past and no longer do people care.
I wonder when and why this pride in maintaining your own little patch slipped away ? It seemed that once decay set in it just escalated.
We have all seen estates that were once nice places to live become almost like no go areas.
Lindy this attitude of no pride,stems to the new generation of young mothers,some with husvand some not and with small children,they don't care a fig about outside the home and as I have said many a time that some people would be more suited to a pigsty rather than a house/flat.Quote:
I wonder when and why this pride in maintaining your own little patch slipped away ? It seemed that once decay set in it just escalated.
We have all seen estates that were once nice places to live become almost like no go areas.
Cantril Farm was great when it was first built,we moved up there when it was only half built and took another couple of years to complete its outcome.
Years later the riffraff got started to get moved into the estate and it went downhill due to house burgalrys and sheer vandalism.
The Knowsley trust took it over and tried their best to remodel it here and there by demolishing the small shopping precinct and surrounding high rise flats,they also demolished the maisonettes and rebuilt houses on the land,they done away with the subways that went under the main roads by filling them in.
At the end of the day its looks quite nice but the trouble is the estate still has many unsavoury characters and asbo's and drug dealers within the estate and like I told a committee member at one meeting you can spruce an area up and put decorations on the roof tops but you cannot change the way people think and act.
Glad I left the sh*thole 6 years ago because I've heard its worse now than it was when living there.
Yes, it's true that whilst it cannot be generalised that it is everyone, certainly the 1930s Norris Green and Walton (thinking Boot and Boswell estates) and the Speke one looked ideal when first built to how they are now. They've done Richard Kelly Drive up a good bit though.
Here's a link to Norris Green and problems that became evident many years ago.....
http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/sho...s-Green-Estate
Quote:
Originally Posted by lindylou
These people were deserving of nice homes. As you say they took a pride in their neighbourhood. Too many people today seem to live a cocoon, they only see the insides of their homes and couldn't care less about outside, you only have to see the rubbish dumped in entries (sometimes just after the bin men have been!). I swear some don't even own a sweeping brush!
Some of these estates have been refurbished umpteen times, yet some tenants are still not happy. I know of some houses refurbished only last year, and are having to be fitted out again because the scally tenants have stripped them of anything of value. I feel sorry for the decent people having to live amongst these dead heads!
You are so right Lizzie. Some people do live in a cocoon.
It's true what you say about houses being refurbished only to be trashed.
I remember saying a long time back here on the forum, about some council house gardens being an absolute tip. (not all I hasten to add - some people have their gardens lovely) .. but there are many who treat their gardens no better than patch of dirt full of rubbish. I don't think they deserve to have a garden when there are people living in houses with just a back yard that would give their right arm for a garden. Once again it comes down to pride and not whether you have the means to make a garden nice - anyone, even the poorest can be tidy and clean.
They were saying on last nights programme that one of the original rules for tenants was that they must upkeep their gardens. But I'm afraid that these days people are a law unto themselves and won't be told nothing.
My nephew was on a gardening training scheme job in the early 90s, which involved tidying up gardens of Liverpool council estates. He would turn up at a house to be greeted by a young couple who had just got out of bed. He would then spend several hours mowing the grass, cutting down weeds and removing rubbish, whilst the occupants sat inside watching Sky TV all day. The only joy he got out of the job was working on the gardens of the elderly and infirm who wanted to tidy up their own gardens, but could not phyiscaly do it. Most of the people living in the flats would have loved to have a garden to care for, yet many of those who had one let it run to rack and ruin.Quote:
Originally Posted by lindylou
That does suprise me,as far as I know back then,you owned a garden with a council house you had to keep it clean and tidy.Quote:
My nephew was on a gardening training scheme job in the early 90s, which involved tidying up gardens of Liverpool council estates. He would turn up at a house to be greeted by a young couple who had just got out of bed. He would then spend several hours mowing the grass, cutting down weeds and removing rubbish, whilst the occupants sat inside watching Sky TV all day.
p,s Sky TV did not appear in the uk till early Aug 1998.
I had Sky Tv in 1990
I dunno? wasn't that a test run sorta thing named British Satallite Broadcasting? owned by Rupert the bear? 4 channels I fink?Quote:
I had Sky Tv in 1990
No I had Sky Sports and Sky Movies back then. You never had to pay for the Sports then either.
The Premiership run by Sky was launched in 1993, according to Murdoch, football did not exist before that date.
Interesting pic's Ged! Reminded me of the time I was in Amsterdam,and for something different,we jumped on a tram,and went to the terminus,which was several miles out of town! We were surprised,(after the "quaintness of the city,itself) to be confronted by numerous tower blocks,maisonettes,3 up flats,along the route,causing one lad to say"it's just like Kirby",which I suppose it was,to a point! The main difference was how clean and tidy it all looked,(though there was some "artistic" graffiti !) much like many Liverpool estates,when they were first built!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
Seeing pic's of these estates on here,and elsewhere,can only make you wonder what went wrong,but I suppose it only takes a few,to ruin it for the majority!
It shows how short sighted Liverpool was that we knocked down all (bar one) of our tenements, yet in other European cities they still stand proud.Quote:
Originally Posted by wsteve55
Yes, city centre apartment living is back in vogue big time. What price this prime real estate that was demolished? Actually though, there are about 10 tenement blocks still remaining, mostly renovated and renamed as private apartments such as Wavertree Gardens, Gt. Richmond St flats, Minster Court (Ex Myrtle Gdns) etc... I expect you were thinking of the Bullring BJ?
I watched the programme on catch up. I always thought that Myrtle House was Minister Court and Myrtle Gardens were the other flats. I would have put a year's wages on being right. Obviously all these years I've been wrong.
Me too, just wondering, was the aerial shot at the beginning of 'homes for workers' Norris Green?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ged
It was barizla yes. Lancelot Keay was responsible for the Norris Green estate whilst in office too and a lot of the 30s houses still in situ along Queens Drive, 50,000 new dwellings he oversaw. burkhilly you could be right as Minster Court are the flats on Melville Place which were part of the Myrtle Gardens complex which it is referred to in general. For instance, when people from outside my old area talk of Gerard Gardens, they can also mean Gerard Crescent or any of the other 5 blocks that made up the development. It's just that Gerard Gardens like Myrtle Gardens had the big letters over the archway.
Brother burkhilly,for what it's worth,the building now designated Minster Court, was originally one of the blocks comprising Myrtle Gardens,Myrtle House was reached by crossing Myrtle St. at a tangent (the main entrance being on Crown St.).Quote:
Originally Posted by burkhilly
My father's family in the late 19th.c lived at various times in the following streets in the area- Hume/Kingsland/Myers/Linden/Harding, and the court buildings of Falkner St and (not sure where this was exactly) Palice St.
My grandmother and her three children moved to 46a Myrtle Gardens when opened (her mother dying there in 1953) and decamped along with her extended family in 1966 to the suburbs of Lee Park.
Flat 46a remains, but the view from it's windows is altered beyond all recognition.
Just in case anybody missed it who wanted to see it, don't forget it's repeated again tonight on BBC4 at 8pm.
Watched it last night on 'catch up'. Really good programme.
What a shame we lost most of the tenements. I know people who lived in 'the buildings' in Kirkdale. Melrose house, Owen house etc. . They all loved living there, so why demolish them??!!
Back on tonight BBC4 8pm
Just put it on record. Cheers Ged la kidder buddy chumQuote:
Originally Posted by Ged
Me too
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Sent from the back of Michael Caine's Mini Cooper S, holding on for dear life......
Just watched it. Brilliant programme!
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Sent from the back of Michael Caine's Mini Cooper S, holding on for dear life......
I think people tend to look back with rose coloured glasses, flats and tenements were horrible to live in and should never have been built.
Whilst I agree with the rose tinted glasses bit, I know many many people who loved living in the tenements. They were of their time, and it was only when the drug dealers/ users etc moved in that their days became numbered. They provided good family homes to many and created communities that do not exist today. I think its right that we celebrate their creation, many families would have still been living in slums had the City not had forsight to try and look after its workers.
From listening to the programme, they were great places to live whilst residents were in employment. Sadly went down hill when labour relaxed the rules.......
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Sent from the back of Michael Caine's Mini Cooper S, holding on for dear life......
Ordinary houses in streets created great communities too. Ask anybody who has lived in both which they would rather have.
Before the drugs there were other anti social things went on in the flats like using the staircases and lifts as toilets,blocked refuse shutes, poor water supplies,noise pollution.
Kirkby built a few blocks that didn`t last very long on Tower Hill.
What you have to remember is people who were moved into the sort of housing normally came from
poorly built homes,
The Great Estate: The Rise & Fall of the Council House......................repeated tonight 10 PM on BBC Four
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0109dvs
Yes, it's well worth a watch. Cheers Lizzie.
Thanks Lizzie. I saw it first time around. Good documentary.
Gerard Gardens and outside No. 15d to be exact. A flat close to my heart as I was never out of there during the 70s when my Uncle Charlie and Aunty Maureen had it and my cousin Paul was one of my best mates.
This photo of an original Mary Ellen was taken pre 1950 as the lift shafts are yet to be built. Notice the tin bowl and stool and that'll no doubt be here daughter helping her hang out the washing. The childrens playground is still in situ and if this was in colour, no doubt the corpy colour scheme of cream over green would be evident.
The photo is credited to J.E. Marsh and features in a new book about Liverpool.
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/1...s15dpre50s.jpg
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