I've never once mentioned anything about smugglers in any of my postings on this.You can't assume that they were used by smugglers without the proof that they were so used either.
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Christopher T. George
Editor, Ripperologist
Editor, Loch Raven Review
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
Chris on Flickr and on MySpace
I heard there was a tunnel from the Adelphi to the docks for rich travellers to use. Sounds a bit far-fetched though...
hi philip
it's on page 45 of the city centre volume.
"In common with other pubs of the town, the cellars had passages leading down towards the River Mersey, reputedly used for smuggling..." (p45, a pub on every corner volume 1, by freddy o' connor)
Glad to see my little topic sparking discussiion!!!
Hi Philip
I did read Chris' view....each to their own view, but in my personal view, I think Freddy O Connor has done great things for this city with his work, and hope he continues to do so!
what is your book called again?
Hi MissInformed
I don't have Freddy O'Connor's series of books on Liverpool pubs. I do have his Liverpool Our City Our Heritage published in 1990, which has a lot in it about pubs as well although I have not noticed this particular story in it. By the way, I am an author myself, of a War of 1812 history book, and while as does Philip, I do honor anyone who can put out a book -- and there is no doubt Mr O'Connor's books have much interest -- I do think unsubstantiated statements made about history need to be challenged. There are facts and there are half truths and there are legends. Unfortunately a lot of reported history is not true and is just plain myth, so I am a bit surprised that Mr. O'Connor would buy the story that tunnels ran from the Vines and other Liverpool pubs to the Mersey for purposes of smuggling without proof that such tunnels did in fact stretch from those pubs to the river.
Chris
Christopher T. George
Editor, Ripperologist
Editor, Loch Raven Review
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
Chris on Flickr and on MySpace
Hi Chris
I do understand what you are saying, yet, I think Freddy has shirked his belief in the tunnels by using the word 'reputedly'.
These tunnels may not lead to the river, but there are tunnels (as proven by jona), and I am pleased I put up this thread now, as I didn't know this time yesterday that ANY tunnels existed under the Vines!!
That is one of mine and my boyfriends fave books Philip!
It is the most referred to one in our house!
Have you written any more?
I've known Freddie for about 6 years as he's a fellow committee member of the Williamson Tunnels and he knows his stuff. While I can't comment on what he wrote was fact or not, I do know that when visiting the place, it wasn't just a single tunnel or cellar system - it was huge with passages going off in all directions. Underground is easily as big as the footprint of the building and there were many arches and doors that were all explored. Although I do not know whether these ever led anywhere, it was a maze down there and it had to be used for something rather than an elaborate cellar system for a pub. I'll see if the same contact is there as we used last and try and get another visit and make a good plan of the system.so I am a bit surprised that Mr. O'Connor would buy the story that tunnels ran from the Vines and other Liverpool pubs to the Mersey for purposes of smuggling without proof that such tunnels did in fact stretch from those pubs to the river.
Hi Jona76:
Okay, thank you, Jona76, that would be useful. Obviously, I don't mind any author making a statement if it's true. But if an author of a history book makes a statement that is not backed up it deserves to be challenged. That's the nature of historical enquiry, the way we get at the truth of what actually happened in the past.
Now, I have no doubt Mr. O'Connor knows about the physical pubs that are still there and that have now gone and no doubt that you are right that there are passages below the Vines. The question is whether they actually did go down to the River and whether they were, as Mr. O'Connor claims, used for smuggling.
Thanks
Chris
Christopher T. George
Editor, Ripperologist
Editor, Loch Raven Review
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
Chris on Flickr and on MySpace
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