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Thread: Mass Grave in Old Swan

  1. #31
    PhilipG
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    Quote:
    "How do you know the coffins were dated? (can you provide a source?)"


    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
    First note that the Tom Slemen article posted above is not from today but I believe appeared before the following which appears to put paid to the speculation that the bodies could be executed Irish people.

    'I gave order to burn bodies'

    Mar 2 2006

    Maghull & Aintree Star


    AS WITNESSED by the huge amount of correspondence received at Merseymart & Star , Tom Slemen's article on the Mass Grave discovered in Old Swan in 1973 drew reaction from many readers.

    One letter that took issue with criminologist Keith Andrews's claims of a systematic massacre of Irish immigrants at the site in around 1848 was written by Liverpool's former principal environmental health officer, Ken Williams, who was in charge of the 1973 exhumation.

    Printed here, it relates to this specific event - not the broader issues regarding the military and the treatment of the Irish.

    Speaking to Merseymart & Star , he said: "I held my position from 1949 to 1989 and the first thing to note is that if you wanted to build or extend on sacred ground you had to consult the Home Office, which would in turn speak to the town clerk, who would then instruct me.

    "The reason there were hoardings was that the Home Office's principal instruction is total decorum, and in this case there were houses on Montague Road overlooking the site.

    "One comment was that these people had been shot and the Home Office were covering it up.

    "The order to burn the bodies came from me and me alone - there were so many that after getting permission to put more than one in a single coffin, and re-inter them in Anfield I had to request permission for cremations.

    "There were no bullet holes in the skulls, and there were already gravestones at the site - it was a marked grave..

    "This discovery was simply beyond the boundary of that graveyard, extending much further than was realised - thousands more bodies.

    "Contrary to one comment in the article, there were indeed coffins containing children discovered.

    "There is also the obvious point that if this was the massacre of three-and-a-half-thousand people - why were they all in coffins with plaques and buried in such an ordered fashion?

    "This was not people who had been thrown in a trench.

    "Also, the date quoted for this 'massacre' was 1848, but some of the coffins had plaques with 1859 on them."Key role in the mass exhumation

    I HAVE followed with great interest the recent articles in your paper with regard to the mass grave unearthed in St Oswald Street, Old Swan.

    The principal officer delegated to be in charge of the entire operation was me.

    When the original gravestones had been removed and the bodies re-interred the excavation continued beyond this boundary and it was at this stage other coffins were found. Some plaques on the coffin lids had dates of 1859, however this should not be considered to be a mass grave at any one time.

    I do not recall seeing bullet marks in the skulls and the authorisation to cremate the bodies was implemented by the Home Office as the result of my request - that it should be done in the interest of public health. I know all this to be true - 'cause I was there!

    K. A. WILLIAMS, Gateacre, Liverpool. (Former principal environmental health officer for Liverpool 1949-1989)

    Source

    Surprised anybody missed this.
    It's part of this thread.

    The more relevant question is: "What is Tom Slemen's source?"

    Strange hooded monks?
    Hearts taken from corpses?
    Satanists?

    How can we take him seriously?
    Last edited by PhilipG; 12-13-2006 at 02:45 PM.

  2. #32

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    Keith Andrews' story said there were no children there, but there were. Plus if it was a 'cold blooded massacre' they would have just thrown the bodies in a pit or trench and in-filled it They wouldn't have put them into individual coffins that would have cost money and put plaques on them.

    I think the Andrews' guy wants to believe it's something more sinister, and has twisted the facts to suit. I'd rather listen to the guy who was involved in the clean-up, and his facts suggest the people died of disease.

  3. #33
    Senior Member lindylou's Avatar
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    Just shows you never know what is underfoot.
    It's astonishing to think that people in Old Swan were living on top of corpses!!

    Not a nice thought.


    I heard that Anfield cemetery is now full up. Eventually we will run out of space for burials .
    I believe that cremation is better.

    This is a morbid topic isn't it.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Waterways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jona76 View Post
    How do you know the coffins were dated? (can you provide a source?)

    This is what Slemen says:
    Read what the health officer says further down the thread.
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  5. #35
    Gnomie
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    Quote Originally Posted by lindylou View Post
    Just shows you never know what is underfoot.
    It's astonishing to think that people in Old Swan were living on top of corpses!!
    Shurrup Lindy i live there



  6. #36
    Re-member Ged's Avatar
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    And hello to you too Tony - yet another blue

  7. #37
    Senior Member marky's Avatar
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    I took this pic of St. Johns' Gardens a few weeks back. This artwork contained 3 cylinders, through which you could view the soil beneath the pathway and look into the 'graves'. I don't know if the positioning of the structure is significant. I vaguely remember some sort of ceremony to the French dead being carried out here...a French official saluting the dead. I always thought the French burials, at least, still remain...I don't know where I heard that though.
    Flickr member TorlPorl has some better pics of the artwork (shows the earth at the bottom of the cylinders):
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/torlpor...7594298952188/
    Here's a link to the artwork which mentions the graveyard:
    http://www.biennial.com/corporate/ar...cle_35_18.html
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	St_Johns_Gardens_Nov_2006.jpg 
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    Last edited by marky; 12-14-2006 at 04:35 AM. Reason: added link

  8. #38

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    I don't know why the exhumation is quoted as happening in 1973.I used to go to Broadgreen school and used to pass this site when it was wasteground and remember playing on there on many occasions.I remember the 20 foot high fences going up and actually remember seeing the workers in white suits and respirators on the site.By the way,I was born in 1973.


  9. #39
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by stan View Post
    I don't know why the exhumation is quoted as happening in 1973.I used to go to Broadgreen school and used to pass this site when it was wasteground and remember playing on there on many occasions.I remember the 20 foot high fences going up and actually remember seeing the workers in white suits and respirators on the site.By the way,I was born in 1973.
    The graves were discovered in April 1973.
    Nobody's questioning that.
    Read through this thread.

  10. #40

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    The graves were discovered when they started digging the foundations for the new school on that site.I remember it all vividly.It wasn't 1973.

  11. #41
    PhilipG
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    Quote Originally Posted by stan View Post
    The graves were discovered when they started digging the foundations for the new school on that site.I remember it all vividly.It wasn't 1973.
    3 different sources say it was 1973.
    See posts 7, 9 & 13 in this thread.
    If the school is still standing, they should know when it was built.

    But that isn't really the point behind this thread.
    The mystery is where did all the graves/corpses come from?
    Personally, I thnk they were victims of some sort of plague.

  12. #42
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Hi Philip and Stan

    Ken Williams, the retired principal environmental health office who was in charge of disposing of the bodies, states that it was 1973 that the remains were first discovered, so there is no doubt about the year. See

    http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/sho...5&postcount=15

    Chris
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  13. #43
    Gnomie
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    I doubt we will ever know.

    It could be Plague victims

    Or Irish holocaust victims

    maybe the french prisoners bodies where cleared from st johns

    whatever the answer they acted suspicious when they dug them all up.

  14. #44
    Senior Member ChrisGeorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnomie View Post
    I doubt we will ever know.

    It could be Plague victims

    Or Irish holocaust victims

    maybe the french prisoners bodies where cleared from st johns

    whatever the answer they acted suspicious when they dug them all up.
    Hi Gnomie

    A mystery certainly. But a lot less suspicious if you check what Mr Ken Williams the former environmental health office had to say -- see link I just posted above.

    Chris
    Christopher T. George
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  15. #45
    Otterspool Onomatopoeia Max's Avatar
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    An enjoyable read this thread.
    Gididi Gididi Goo.

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